"Good enough IS good enough"- the "NEW" athletics plan,

[JimmyDimes]

I didn't say fans should stop voicing their displeasure, nor am I saying that Burman the greatest AD ever. I just understand why it's written the way it is. It's more than a "perfect scenario" document, it has to be measurable and realistic...and it could have been done much, much better.

I agree with the last part of your statement completely, as I think most here (if not all) do. I think our fanbase is becoming "Idaho" - in other words, more and more people are losing the desire to care. Each year, it gets worse, and the numbness starts to fog over the fanbase further. And UW becomes irrelevant - or more irrelevant. And that, IMO, is completely avoidable, by an athletic department and leader that have vision, inspiration, desire, etc. None of which they have...as further evident by the poop document we are all discussing.

While I agree the leadership at UW, especially in the AD's office, needs improvement. I don't think our fanbase is turning into an Idaho. We have fans that care and bleed brown and gold. They buy and wear the gear. And, they support the program. Bring is a winner, which this fanbase in hungry for, and the support will be better than ever. We currently have the 2nd largest fanbase in the MWC and I would hope a few bad years isn't enough for them to start looking for other options or other teams to cheer for. We just need something to hang our hat on.....cuz the fan base is ready to support a winner.

[Wyo2dal]

I didn't say fans should stop voicing their displeasure, nor am I saying that Burman the greatest AD ever. I just understand why it's written the way it is. It's more than a "perfect scenario" document, it has to be measurable and realistic...and it could have been done much, much better.

I agree with the last part of your statement completely, as I think most here (if not all) do. I think our fanbase is becoming "Idaho" - in other words, more and more people are losing the desire to care. Each year, it gets worse, and the numbness starts to fog over the fanbase further. And UW becomes irrelevant - or more irrelevant. And that, IMO, is completely avoidable, by an athletic department and leader that have vision, inspiration, desire, etc. None of which they have...as further evident by the poop document we are all discussing.

While I agree the leadership at UW, especially in the AD's office, needs improvement. I don't think our fanbase is turning into an Idaho. We have fans that care and bleed brown and gold. They buy and wear the gear. And, they support the program. Bring is a winner, which this fanbase in hungry for, and the support will be better than ever. We currently have the 2nd largest fanbase in the MWC and I would hope a few bad years isn't enough for them to start looking for other options or other teams to cheer for. We just need something to hang our hat on.....cuz the fan base is ready to support a winner.

7 Years above .500 spread out over 20 years of Football and 4 of the 7 years were in the 90's I'm not going to throw in the towel if I was it would have been done a long time ago but " a few bad years " that is a colossal under statement.

[HiCountryCowboy]

It's a performance standard. You can't attact coaches to a job like Wyoming if the written standard to which he is measured is championships or bust. Especially if you can't provide those coaches with the financial resources that would help him compete for a championship annually. Burman mentioned that with increased funding and better performance, that bar will be raised.

I don't want a coach that is only willing to be held to a .500 standard. These guys (specifically football and basketball) get ~$1M/year to be held to a high standard (and I bet they are harder on themselves than fans are anyway). Burman's had too many years to just be getting this far. HIS ASS NEEDS TO BE SHOWN THE DOOR!

[BackHarlowRoad]

It's a performance standard. You can't attact coaches to a job like Wyoming if the written standard to which he is measured is championships or bust. Especially if you can't provide those coaches with the financial resources that would help him compete for a championship annually. Burman mentioned that with increased funding and better performance, that bar will be raised.

I don't want a coach that is only willing to be held to a .500 standard. These guys (specifically football and basketball) get ~$1M/year to be held to a high standard (and I bet they are harder on themselves than fans are anyway). Burman's had too many years to just be getting this far. HIS ASS NEEDS TO BE SHOWN THE DOOR!

There's a difference between cultural and verbal expectations and a written standard. I think that's what it boils down to. If it is written that a coach is expected to compete for a MWC title immediately upon hire, we will go through a poop-ton of coaches (even if we win, because the coach that is able to pull that off right out of the gate is leaving somewhere else). The more coaches we go through, the number of quality coaches who would be interested drops, starting an endless cycle of terrible coaching and terrible results. IMO.

I also think expectations are different than goals. The goal is to compete for a MWC title, the expectation is to finish i the top half of the conference. For many sports, that is one in the same. If we were consistently one of the best 4 basketball teams in the MWC, we'd be attending the tourney regularly and at least having a shot at the MWC title, no?

[joshvanklomp]

I didn't say fans should stop voicing their displeasure, nor am I saying that Burman the greatest AD ever. I just understand why it's written the way it is. It's more than a "perfect scenario" document, it has to be measurable and realistic...and it could have been done much, much better.

I agree with the last part of your statement completely, as I think most here (if not all) do. I think our fanbase is becoming "Idaho" - in other words, more and more people are losing the desire to care. Each year, it gets worse, and the numbness starts to fog over the fanbase further. And UW becomes irrelevant - or more irrelevant. And that, IMO, is completely avoidable, by an athletic department and leader that have vision, inspiration, desire, etc. None of which they have...as further evident by the poop document we are all discussing.

Believe it or not, NDSU was the same way just 10 years ago. Check this out, which was written around late 2003:

The Fargodome is a lot like a church - but not one of those churches were people get up and yell "Hallelujah!" It's more like one of those churches where you sit until you are told to stand and then sit right back down again. I figure many of the fans are too exhausted from the climb to their seats to be bothered with much else. Some are too busy complaining about coaching to be bothered with cheering. Occasionally, the crowd will rouse itself from its stupor and make some noise though; that's when the dome is great.

To me, that sounds like the mood that seems to be around the Pokes fan base. And believe it or not, the AD that you guys are wanting to be hired here was in charge back then too.

[Brew_Poke]

Is competing for championships the same as winning an outright championship? If UW football competes for championships 3 of 4 years, and then rebuilds for one, it that acceptable to everyone? Of Burman's tenure, how many championships has UW competed for (in ALL MWC sports)?

If fans stop voicing their displeasure and demanding some sort of measured success (that may indicate a change), does that mean they have become indifferent?

We already compete for championships every year, it's called the season. We f'in suck at it, and compete poop.

[Brew_Poke]

The goal is to compete for a MWC title,

The goal is to field a team?

[Pokes Forever]

Some of Wyoming's program are competing despite the lack of direction and support of the AD and the BOT. Men' BBALL is showing flashes despite a lack of depth and the Womens BBall program is always competitive and could probably make it to the top with support. I am hopeful that Coach Bohl will be able to do the same and field a competitive/championship team without Burman and the BOT's.....he certainly has the pedigree coming in.

[BackHarlowRoad]

The goal is to compete for a MWC title,

The goal is to field a team?

Ok smart ass.

The goal is to be in contention for a MWC title.

[fromolwyoming]

The goal is to compete for a MWC title,

The goal is to field a team?

WRONG! The goal is to find a bunch of kids (maybe 80 or so), give them a free academic ride, and have them go out onto the field. They don't have to do anything, they just need to look pretty for the occassional picture we take for the school site!

[spindoctor02]

This is the issue right here, Last time Wyoming won a Division outright was 1996

1996: 10-2-0

Coach: Joe Tiller
WAC - Pacific Division Champions

We lost to BYU 28-25

Just because this post got me thinking, here are some other facts on the last conference championships for some other "bigger" programs.

Iowa State - 1912 Missouri Valley Champion
Vanderbilt - 1923 Southern Conference Co-Champions
Minnesota - 1967 Big 10 Co-Champions
Kentucky - 1976 Southeastern Conference Co-Champions
NC State - 1979 ACC Champion
Arizona - Only 1 since 1974 (1993 Pacific-10 Conference Co-Champions)
New Mexico - Only 1 since 1965 (1997 WAC - Mountain Division Champions)
Mississippi State - Only 1 since 1942 (1998 SEC - Western Division Co-Champions)
Oregon State - Only 1 since 1965 (2000 Pacific-10 Conference Co-Champions)
Purdue - Only 1 since 1968 (2000 Co-Champions)
Mississippi - Only 1 since 1964 (2003 SEC - Western Division Co-Champions)
California - Only 1 since 1976 (2006 Pacific-10 Conference Co-Champions)
Kansas - Only 1 since 1969 (2007 Big 12 North - Co-Champions)

Since 1980, there are a total of 8 Conference Championships amongst those 13 schools. In that same time frame, Wyoming has 4.

------------------------
Caveat - I'm not a huge Burman fan, and also not a huge fan of the athletics plan, but if the only measurable is football championships, then there'd be a lot of big time BCS squads without football teams at this point.

[joshvanklomp]

Just because this post got me thinking, here are some other facts on the last conference championships for some other "bigger" programs.

Purdue - Only 1 since 1968 (2000 Co-Champions)
Mississippi - Only 1 since 1964 (2003 SEC - Western Division Co-Champions)
California - Only 1 since 1976 (2006 Pacific-10 Conference Co-Champions)

Since 1980, there are a total of 8 Conference Championships amongst those 13 schools. In that same time frame, Wyoming has 4.

So what you're saying is, all we need is a Drew Brees, Eli Manning or Aaron Rodgers

[ragtimejoe1]

I'm more convinced than ever that we just really aren't that interested in trying to be athletically dominant. I'm convinced our AD is satisfied with fielding a team and hoping once in 10 or so blue moons, that we can be in the upper half of the MWC.

Well, our support has the same goals. The reason we don't get lots of fans or lots of donations is because of that cancerous attitude. Our attendance is almost never last in the MWC and is always average. Some years (in bball at least) we challenge for the leading attendance in the conference. Maybe the same could be said of donations.

It is a perpetual cycle of mediocrity at best. We are exactly what we strive to be. Mission accomplished Mr. Burman.

[Wyolie Coyote]

I'm more convinced than ever that we just really aren't that interested in trying to be athletically dominant. I'm convinced our AD is satisfied with fielding a team and hoping once in 10 or so blue moons, that we can be in the upper half of the MWC.

Well, our support has the same goals. The reason we don't get lots of fans or lots of donations is because of that cancerous attitude. Our attendance is almost never last in the MWC and is always average. Some years (in bball at least) we challenge for the leading attendance in the conference. Maybe the same could be said of donations.

It is a perpetual cycle of mediocrity at best. We are exactly what we strive to be. Mission accomplished Mr. Burman.

^^This^^

[kansasCowboy]

I agree that I think we could do better in our athletic department. But look where our athletic program was as a whole when Burman took over. Our football program was tanked. We had one good year in 04. In Burman's first year WYO went 6-6 under Glenn and was extremely competitive, could've easily been 10-2 that year. I'm sure that had Burman's confidence up in Glenn,then we began a downward trend. 5-7 the next year, started out hot that year and then completely fell off the rails at the end of the year. Then 4-8. And not competitive in the least. Burman noticed that the trend would more than likely continue down for several years if we kept Glenn and Co. So he makes the change, and goes after a "hot commodity" in DC. There were even several BCS schools looking at DC. We have success in his first year when we were projected by EVERYBODY to be last and quite possibly only a one win team. That year got everyones hopes up. And it seemed we were on an upward trend again. Burman gave DC and extension and raise.Then we fell apart the next year, had some injuries, but fell apart. Burman held steadfast. No raise no extension. Then we have our best year since 98. Everyone is excited and thinks we're on the right track, Burman seeing two good bowl years out of three with DC is at the time seeing an upward trend. Extension and raise. The next year was terrible with injuries and we dropped again. DC lost control with AFA and I'm sure that stuck with Burman. Then we start out strong again 4-1 only loss being a 3 point nail bitter at Nebraska. Everyone including Burman's hopes are up again, then like Glenn the team fell off the rails the rest of the year. Seeing yet another downward trend and this time more expensive he doesn't give DC as much of an opportunity as he did Glenn. So he does the best thing he can do, he brings in probably the best coach anyone could've got this year. And already the hype is up about the recruiting, the coaching, the schedule, and we are even being projected in the Espn way to early to pick bowl projections. All this leads to an upward trend yet again, Burman is hoping that this is the hire that finally gets him in the top half of the conf year in and year out. And overall since 2000 our football program has made a steady upward trend. Burman aswell as fans are finally hoping this hire will get us there. Also Burman has invested in our stadium and other football facilities. Before Burman,other than minor upkeep on the football stadium I can only think of two major investments, permanent stadium lights and the field turf. Burman brought in rennovations, the suites, the IPF and an updated field turf. And has more in store.
Most say that Burman has no championship under his belt as an AD, but he does have the WNIT championship. And our women's program has been able to maintain it's winning ways. His promotion of women's basketball has helped increase attendance, to be in the top 20 in the nation for women's basketball programs.
Men's basketball, He had McClain for a year, it was a year of thug basketball with piss poor grades, and since McClain hadn't really done anything with the program three years prior he let him go and picked up what looked to be an up and coming coach in Schroyer, who had turned Portland around from it's losing ways. Burman expected a transition year and didn't let it bother him in Schroyers first year at 12-18. Then the next year we improved with. 19-14 record and it seemed we may be heading in the right direction again, extension and raise for Schroyer. As soon as the exten and raise the wheels completely fell out from under our basketball program. Burman gave Schroyer most of his last season to prove he wasn't a mistake and cut him from the program early in order to start over and rebuild the men's program. Bring in Shyatt. And we have now seen an upward trend under Burman in our basketball program. Attendance has begun to climb and now Burman has plans to renovate the arena, where no other AD has given it a second thought.

I will say that even though it's slow, under Burman our programs are all either maintaining or continuing a steady upward trend. And we have an AD who is actually investing in the programs and no only maintaining our facilities and venues but is upgrading them as well.
And if you think about it, wrestling has continued it's prowess under Burman, Volleyball has become an upward trend, track and field is usually one of the top in the nation and swimming has continued to be a storied top program. Even to the point of making their pool upgrade a priority.
The other thing that I like probably the most with Burman is he is the first AD I can think of to think outside of the box and want to build a training facility, not only for our players, but also for other pro athletes and Olympians who want to train at altitude. It gives us a new training facility for our sports programs and helps us to continue to pay bills and make more money for our program on the side by obliging other athletes for their training purposes.
And yes when it comes to talking about our programs budget right now it is going to look like small potatoes, a lot of our budget comes from attendance, and right now we barely avg 20k a game for football and about 6k a game for bball, when the winning begins to show more domenance then our attendnace goes up and so does our budget.

[WyoExpat]

It's a performance standard. You can't attact coaches to a job like Wyoming if the written standard to which he is measured is championships or bust. Especially if you can't provide those coaches with the financial resources that would help him compete for a championship annually. Burman mentioned that with increased funding and better performance, that bar will be raised.

Would any of you take a job at a company where your position isn't properly funded, the customer base is significantly smaller than the competition, and your performance standard coming in is that the company must reach a ranking of #1 in the region within two years and it must maintain that ranking or your fired? Of course you wouldn't. You'd take a job where the standard is to improve the company's standing and be more competitive with other companies. Once you are more competitive, then the standard is raised to win championships more often than not.

You may be able to build a program, but if you can't get over the top and win championships, then it's time to find someone that can. You don't set that bar when you're usually in the bottom half of the conference. You set the standard of excellence when you're legitimately competing for championships year in and year out.

What Burman is saying isn't accepting mediocrity. It's the first realistic step toward attracting quality coaches to build championship programs.

+1

There is a big difference between setting goals and establishing a plan with achievable objectives over the near- and mid-terms. There is something to the adage that one must learn to walk before one runs. The objectives that are outlined in the plan look like what I would describe as winning becoming routine. Once winning becomes the norm, then we can move on to rarely, if ever, losing.

In the same way, this plan is focused on items that are within the direct control of the administration. At the end of the day, our on-field and on-court performance is at the mercy of college kids, not pros. That is part of the reason college sports are so unpredictable and fun.

On a slightly political note, I am thankful that this is not another, infernal 5-year-plan.

[Wyolie Coyote]

The other thing that I like probably the most with Burman is he is the first AD I can think of to think outside of the box and want to build a training facility, not only for our players, but also for other pro athletes and Olympians who want to train at altitude. It gives us a new training facility for our sports programs and helps us to continue to pay bills and make more money for our program on the side by obliging other athletes for their training purposes.

Really? I would really like to see how this will be funded and developed? This is fodder to buy more time. You really think that a training facility in Laramie will compete with a training facility 2.5 hours away in Colorado Springs? I think not. There is no added benefit to build such a facility. Nothing but a pipedream.

[JimmyDimes]

The other thing that I like probably the most with Burman is he is the first AD I can think of to think outside of the box and want to build a training facility, not only for our players, but also for other pro athletes and Olympians who want to train at altitude. It gives us a new training facility for our sports programs and helps us to continue to pay bills and make more money for our program on the side by obliging other athletes for their training purposes.

Really? I would really like to see how this will be funded and developed? This is fodder to buy more time. You really think that a training facility in Laramie will compete with a training facility 2.5 hours away in Colorado Springs? I think not. There is no added benefit to build such a facility. Nothing but a pipedream.

Yes, really. Much of the funding is coming from private donations according to the article.

Not everything Wyoming is doing is bad.

Go Pokes!!

http://www.gowyo.com/sports/m-wrestl/sp ... 13aab.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[stymeman]

i think his true colors are starting to show(Burman), although in the beginning I liked the idea of having a hometown boy being the AD at UW, but now I'm not so sure, maybe it's time to part waves with him and get a proven winner in here fairly soon. Maybe he's truly been in Laramie far too long, time will tell within the next 3-5 years i think, i'm tired of middle of the pack myself, it's time to win MWC championships and prove we truly belong!!!

[ragtimejoe1]

Burman's only plan is to try and catch lightning in a bottle with a coach. Every men's bball and football coach under Burman has failed. That is a fact and a symptom of a larger cancer. Sure we've upgraded facilities with funds targeted for facility upgrades, but we are still handicapped in things like recruiting budgets.

I'm less about talk and more about performance. There has been nothing in the performance area of football or men's bball to suggest Burman has done a good job. For hell's sake, we aren't playing in the SEC. We are in the MWC. Even after TCU, BYU, and Utah left, we are still getting our tails kicked.