Kiszla: Wyoming basketball is tough — and tough to watch

[DocHolliday]

Who the f-word is David?

I had you confused with someone else...my apologies.

[kansasCowboy]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with one team wanting to run and gun and nothing wrong with another setting it up and slowing it down. Even the NBA had a team that would set it up and run a motion for almost 24 seconds. They rarely scored over 100 and when they did it was only by a few points. They were known for a motion and sets. And they were successful. And usually it frustrated any other team they played.
Do you know who this was?

Hint: Stockton to Malone!!!

When you begin to tell teams how and what they can do on offense, you lose the complete dynamic of basketball. It's what makes basketball great. You can do what you feel is best for your team to be productive. It's not "Stone Age" when there have been multiple teams slowing it down EVERY year for the last one hundred year.
It's not inhibiting the progress of the game in anyway. It just upsets fans of teams that score 80+ ppg whe they are held to 60. I don't care if it frustrates you. That's the point, and it generally helps the underdog have a chance.

Stockton to Malone was not low scoring. Utah routinely scored more than 100 points a game. And why you're comparing NBA to the college game is about as relevant as when compared an early season college basketball upset to a football upset.
although I'm not a fan of Kizla in general, he's right on this. These games are not entertaining. Our games against Utah st and Boise state were quite good. But the championship game was nearly unwatchable. I think we need a 30 second shot clock. I also agree there are way too many timeouts. The flow of the game is just non existant with all the whistles and the time outs and free throws.

At one point, NFL games were quite low scoring. Then the rules were changed to free up receivers down the field and suddenly the scoring increased and the ratings went through the roof. Change can be a good thing. It wasn't that long ago we had no shot clock and no 3 point line. I remember Brandenburg played 4 corners on our home floor against byu and the the score was like 4-0 at the half. Worst game I've ever seen.

Doc Holliday, you are wasting your time. You cannot post anything on this board that is critical of Wyoming basketball, general or specific. I think the team over achieved. So I give the players and the coaches credit. Also, I think we got as about as bad a draw as possible in the first round. I enjoy seeing us competitive. But Shyatt reminds me a bit of Boyd Grant, who used to coach at csewe. They made a couple of NCAA tournaments back in the early 90's, I believe. They played a deliberate style similar to us. At some point, it affected recruiting. They were successful, but it's hard to recruit talent when they see the style of play isn't exactly condusive to shooting and scoring. It will be interesting to see what kind of talent we get in the coming years.

Some change, yes. Shot clock? Maybe. Outlawing certain styles of play, no.
And Utah was low scoring for an NBA team. Always ranked near the bottom in scoring. The point of it was saying that even the NBA like some would like college to imitate, also had or has, for their style, shot clock, and Defense rules a team that used almost the entire 24 seconds to score.
97was their best year they avged 103; 98 they avgd 101; 99 they avged 96.5; and 2k they avged 97. 01-03 got gradually worse (96; 94.7; 88.7) due to Sloans slow style plus trying to find a new dynamic from Stockton and Malone.
With a 24 clock and four quarters that is a slower pace. The point is even the pros have slow down methodical offense, but it usually a one or two man show who just bring it down the court and throw it up themselves. 76ers and Iverson would be one, early career of Kobe Bryant and the Lakers would be another. It's not team ball, it's what Wyoming used to do with Jay Straight. Post all four players in a corner and let Straight try to dribble drive his way to the basket. I absolutely hated that style, we gained nothing out of it, our teams sucked because of it and we pretty much lead the conf in turnovers, cause Straights man would still be on him all the way to the basket and two other defenders would converge down on him, which lead to Straight throwing up a stupid prayer or he'd try to dish out but the ball would be knocked away and stolen.
It may work for some. I prefer a motion offense. I also like to run when you have the chance, but not every time down.

[WyoBrandX]

College basketball is fun because you never know how your team will compare to others due to the fact there are so many teams out there to play - and chances are - you may have never heard of the other team (for me - Northern Iowa --- whoo?)

I would find college basketball boring if each team exchanged shot for shot (no defense) the entire game. Whoever missed less lost.

I would find college basketball boring if each team didn't get to shoot because the other team stopped it.

A 12-10 loss sounds as bad as a 120-100 loss.

It is all about the technique.

Enjoy it. Don't try to handicap it. We really don't need the stupidity we see in college football these days. (defense is heavily handicapped - and offenses are trying to find more and more ways to rub it in - almost to the point of ruining the game).

[NowherePoke]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with one team wanting to run and gun and nothing wrong with another setting it up and slowing it down. Even the NBA had a team that would set it up and run a motion for almost 24 seconds. They rarely scored over 100 and when they did it was only by a few points. They were known for a motion and sets. And they were successful. And usually it frustrated any other team they played.
Do you know who this was?

Hint: Stockton to Malone!!!

When you begin to tell teams how and what they can do on offense, you lose the complete dynamic of basketball. It's what makes basketball great. You can do what you feel is best for your team to be productive. It's not "Stone Age" when there have been multiple teams slowing it down EVERY year for the last one hundred year.
It's not inhibiting the progress of the game in anyway. It just upsets fans of teams that score 80+ ppg whe they are held to 60. I don't care if it frustrates you. That's the point, and it generally helps the underdog have a chance.

Doc Holliday, you are wasting your time. You cannot post anything on this board that is critical of Wyoming basketball, general or specific. I think the team over achieved. So I give the players and the coaches credit. Also, I think we got as about as bad a draw as possible in the first round. I enjoy seeing us competitive. But Shyatt reminds me a bit of Boyd Grant, who used to coach at csewe. They made a couple of NCAA tournaments back in the early 90's, I believe. They played a deliberate style similar to us. At some point, it affected recruiting. They were successful, but it's hard to recruit talent when they see the style of play isn't exactly condusive to shooting and scoring. It will be interesting to see what kind of talent we get in the coming years.

LOL! You might want to check out what Boyd Grant accomplished at Fresno and CSU. CSU has been in the WAC/MWC for about 50 years. They have finished 1st twice, both under Grant. He also won 2 NCAA games (one at Fresno and one at CSU) and a NIT title. He is widely considered the most successful coach of the last 50 years for two MWC programs (CSU/FSU).

We can only hope that Shyatt will achieve the same level of success. Only Brandenburg, whose style was similar, achieved more at UW than Grant did at CSU in the last 50 years.

I am no sunshine pumper and there is room for improvement in the program, but the program is clearly in the best shape it has been in a long time.

[ragtimejoe1]

More stone age offense on display between Virginia and Mich State. Score is 57 49 with 40 seconds left.

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

More stone age offense on display between Virginia and Mich State. Score is 57 49 with 40 seconds left.

If we win, do we really care how it looks?

I think the team we see this fall is close to vintage Florida. We will have athletes who can get out and run but will be able to clamp down on D. I am so excited for that, it will address my two favorite things about College Basketball, great D and exciting offense. I just don't think Shyatt has had the personnel yet to play the kind of basketball he is accustomed to.

[djm19]

Good gosh....to think we have six more months of this garbage until football season....

[Wyo2dal]

Good gosh....to think we have six more months of this garbage until football season....

Yup it's going to be the longest off season in years

[Wyokie]

Good gosh....to think we have six more months of this garbage until football season....

Yup it's going to be the longest off season in years

It'll be even worse should the football team tanks this year.

[DocHolliday]

There's no question in my mind they overachieved - the consistent comments talking about how Nance has nobody else on the team to help out is an indictment of just how average this year's team was.

Let us not get crazy here. Was it a fun year? The most enjoyable year in some time, for sure. Was it inspiring? Tremendously so. Did it bring about a level of exposure & visibility to the program that was desperately needed? No question. However, on the other hand -- this year's team was the beneficiary of a bloated win total against the easiest schedule in the conference and they were the beneficiaries of being in a MWC that was severely down this past year. Anyone disputing this is simply delusional.

While I appreciated the season and I want to believe it could be the start of something big -- I also warn myself that what I just witnessed could very well be a fools gold situation.

The offense stayed the same and utterly predictable all season long with very few wrinkles or variations and it made us easier to defend on a game by game basis. Our defense was not as good as the statistics would have someone believe primarily because we played a slow and even slower offensive pace that I found maddening for much of the year. 20 passes (mostly all of them on the perimeter) with each possession, wasted movement, no cutting, little pick and roll action, and for some reason Larry Nance constantly with the basketball in areas of the court where he was useless. This never changed the entire year. UNI looked like they knew what we were going to do 2 minutes before each possession because they did know. They also knew that Shyatt and his staff never had a Plan B on offense.

We had not a single player (possibly Josh Adams at times) who could beat a defender off the dribble and create their own shot.

I hope I am wrong but I would expect a pretty steep drop-off next season, although I am excited/intrigued with this new recruiting class that Shyatt is bringing in.

As to Shyatt. I think he is a good coach, but he whined too much for my liking during the year, especially with the little cryptic sound bites concerning people not appreciating the team and things like you never know what you have until it's gone. I can do without that stuff - this is Division 1 CBB, not a CYO Tournament. You get virtually no critical pieces ever written about the program in the 2 newspapers who have writers on the beat so please shut up, suck it up, ignore the noise, and get your team ready to play. I think it's awesome that there is passion, critical thinking, and a certain segment of the fan base that isn't simply satiated by effort alone. Effort is supposed to be a given. So too is 'doing things the right way'. If this is the way Shyatt reacts to a mostly Brown & Gold Kool-Aid drinking audience I shudder to think what he'd be like if he was coaching at a CBB mecca town.

Shyatt seemed offended that anyone would dare question anything relating to his team during the year...and as a fan I felt insulted and offended he would dare believe that his role and his team are outside the boundaries of any second guessing.

Also about Shyatt: Here is a coach who played into the same 'poison' that he told his team not to involve themselves in. A few weeks back when the poop hit the fan and certain players took to Twitter to express their own displeasure with anyone being critical, I could not help but to think that they were simply taking their cues from a coach who more or less did exactly what their own coach did earlier in the season.

A very good season that generated a great deal of pride for this fan - and a season I'll remember for a while, if only because that kind of a ride to the Dance has been missing for years and years and years. However I'm not allowing myself to become seduced into thinking this was a great team or even a really good team. This was and is an average team that was scrappy, plucky, resilient, and got on a nice run in the MWC tournament to bring it to its season-high crescendo.

Nance is obviously an all-time Cowboy (although I felt his skill set was wasted in too many games), Grabau was all guts all the time (and a kid you want your daughter to marry), Adams was up one day then down the next and he has more to his game that I will find interesting to watch next year...the team was basically a group of dead-end kids who had no fear of anyone and played each game with that kind of a mentality.

A nice season for sure. Now keep the program headed in an upward trajectory, become a consistent MWC, start winning some road games against better competition (both inside & outside of the conference) and keep Wyoming Basketball on the map.

This program has not yet arrived - it's not even close to being at that point if consistent winning and championship aspirations are the goal. The Cowboys are still very much a work in progress.

I loved a lot about this season and I had my grievances with a few things as well.

2014-15 MWC Champions.

Awesome.

I want more.

[BeaverPoke]

Good gosh....to think we have six more months of this garbage until football season....

Yup it's going to be the longest off season in years

It'll be even worse when the football team tanks this year.

FIFY

[kansasCowboy]

More stone age offense on display between Virginia and Mich State. Score is 57 49 with 40 seconds left.

If we win, do we really care how it looks?

Exactly! This team may not of had high scoring game, but they were extremely effective around the rim! 166 dunks on the year! That was enough to keep everyone entertained and excited...

I a also agree to a point. Yes, we did play a weaker schedule, but we also went out and won when we needed it the most and it didn't matter who it was. (CSU x2; USU x2; UNLV a few games after their win against Zona; BSU x2)
We can argue all we want about our weak OOC schedule, but we even took it to a few teams
There aswell (NMSU, was well in hand until their two 35 foot 3pt jumpers to end the game made it closer than it was; Southern, people can say they were weak if they want, we humiliated them in WYO and then they almost topped Baylor and ISU among a couple others in their OOC, plus they completely turned their season around and almost won their conf; Colorado, even though they were down this year, played pretty good ball to finish off the season, and still may end with a winning record; We played well at Cali who was having a good run and a decent first year with their new HC.)

Then only teams to really knock down our OOC SOS was FAMU and the second Mont St game, otherwise our schedule was very formidable. Every team has a Stetson and a regional Denver on their schedule.

And if anyone wants to call our conf down, the only reason it was considered down was because the typical big names, UNLV, UNM struggled this year. And their lack of wins was equaled to and surpassed by three other teams that just generally don't receive notoriety, (CSU 27-7, WYO 25-10, and BSU 25-9) if either of these three teams had traded this years success with both UNM and UNLV, everyone (media) would be talking up the MWC more than they did this year. It wouldn't have been considered a down year.
WYO played some very talented teams this year and won, doing it our way. Our talent has excelled in each recruiting class, and I believe we will actually see these fresh become the "next" great senior class, that will surpass this senior class. And that is what we want! It shows program growth. Will we drop off next year? A little.
I said it in another thread (just speculating with an OOC a little tougher than this year) this team will be finding its niche, and will probably do a 8-5 type OOC record, based on what is coming back in the conf, I think we could see WYO anywhere from 6-12 to 9-9. That sets us at 14-17 at worst or 17-14 at best, with a VERY young team. That's just speculation, we don't even know who we are going to play besides Mont St and Dever again. But I don't see us losing these games badly. I see us competing as a young team, McClains drop off year, we just downright sucked! I honestly have no Idea how we even got 11 wins with Jay Straight. Plus, we played one on one, throw up a stupid shot with three guys on you contested shots! This team will be learning team ball and camaraderie. That alone makes a team stronger. And we only lose one senior. This team is going to be together and grow together for what seems like a long three years for this conf.
We will be fine going into the next few years, plus our senior class probably just helped us with recruiting in the future with the conf title and NCAA tourney bid. So here's to even better recruiting in the future! Go POKES!!!

[DocHolliday]

More stone age offense on display between Virginia and Mich State. Score is 57 49 with 40 seconds left.

If we win, do we really care how it looks?

Exactly! This team may not of had high scoring game, but they were extremely effective around the rim! 166 dunks on the year! That was enough to keep everyone entertained and excited...

I a also agree to a point. Yes, we did play a weaker schedule, but we also went out and won when we needed it the most and it didn't matter who it was. (CSU x2; USU x2; UNLV a few games after their win against Zona; BSU x2)
We can argue all we want about our weak OOC schedule, but we even took it to a few teams
There aswell (NMSU, was well in hand until their two 35 foot 3pt jumpers to end the game made it closer than it was; Southern, people can say they were weak if they want, we humiliated them in WYO and then they almost topped Baylor and ISU among a couple others in their OOC, plus they completely turned their season around and almost won their conf; Colorado, even though they were down this year, played pretty good ball to finish off the season, and still may end with a winning record; We played well at Cali who was having a good run and a decent first year with their new HC.)

Then only teams to really knock down our OOC SOS was FAMU and the second Mont St game, otherwise our schedule was very formidable. Every team has a Stetson and a regional Denver on their schedule.

And if anyone wants to call our conf down, the only reason it was considered down was because the typical big names, UNLV, UNM struggled this year. And their lack of wins was equaled to and surpassed by three other teams that just generally don't receive notoriety, (CSU 27-7, WYO 25-10, and BSU 25-9) if either of these three teams had traded this years success with both UNM and UNLV, everyone (media) would be talking up the MWC more than they did this year. It wouldn't have been considered a down year.
WYO played some very talented teams this year and won, doing it our way. Our talent has excelled in each recruiting class, and I believe we will actually see these fresh become the "next" great senior class, that will surpass this senior class. And that is what we want! It shows program growth. Will we drop off next year? A little.
I said it in another thread (just speculating with an OOC a little tougher than this year) this team will be finding its niche, and will probably do a 8-5 type OOC record, based on what is coming back in the conf, I think we could see WYO anywhere from 6-12 to 9-9. That sets us at 14-17 at worst or 17-14 at best, with a VERY young team. That's just speculation, we don't even know who we are going to play besides Mont St and Dever again. But I don't see us losing these games badly. I see us competing as a young team, McClains drop off year, we just downright sucked! I honestly have no Idea how we even got 11 wins with Jay Straight. Plus, we played one on one, throw up a stupid shot with three guys on you contested shots! This team will be learning team ball and camaraderie. That alone makes a team stronger.
We will be fine going into the next few years, plus our senior class probably just helped us with recruiting in the future with the conf title and NCAA tourney bid. So here's to even better recruiting in the future! Go POKES!!!

That's an uplifting and well-reasoned post KC. I appreciate your optimism and certainly hope you're bang on with many of the items you covered.

[WYCowboy]

More stone age offense on display between Virginia and Mich State. Score is 57 49 with 40 seconds left.

If we win, do we really care how it looks?

Exactly! This team may not of had high scoring game, but they were extremely effective around the rim! 166 dunks on the year! That was enough to keep everyone entertained and excited...

I a also agree to a point. Yes, we did play a weaker schedule, but we also went out and won when we needed it the most and it didn't matter who it was. (CSU x2; USU x2; UNLV a few games after their win against Zona; BSU x2)
We can argue all we want about our weak OOC schedule, but we even took it to a few teams
There aswell (NMSU, was well in hand until their two 35 foot 3pt jumpers to end the game made it closer than it was; Southern, people can say they were weak if they want, we humiliated them in WYO and then they almost topped Baylor and ISU among a couple others in their OOC, plus they completely turned their season around and almost won their conf; Colorado, even though they were down this year, played pretty good ball to finish off the season, and still may end with a winning record; We played well at Cali who was having a good run and a decent first year with their new HC.)

Then only teams to really knock down our OOC SOS was FAMU and the second Mont St game, otherwise our schedule was very formidable. Every team has a Stetson and a regional Denver on their schedule.

And if anyone wants to call our conf down, the only reason it was considered down was because the typical big names, UNLV, UNM struggled this year. And their lack of wins was equaled to and surpassed by three other teams that just generally don't receive notoriety, (CSU 27-7, WYO 25-10, and BSU 25-9) if either of these three teams had traded this years success with both UNM and UNLV, everyone (media) would be talking up the MWC more than they did this year. It wouldn't have been considered a down year.
WYO played some very talented teams this year and won, doing it our way. Our talent has excelled in each recruiting class, and I believe we will actually see these fresh become the "next" great senior class, that will surpass this senior class. And that is what we want! It shows program growth. Will we drop off next year? A little.
I said it in another thread (just speculating with an OOC a little tougher than this year) this team will be finding its niche, and will probably do a 8-5 type OOC record, based on what is coming back in the conf, I think we could see WYO anywhere from 6-12 to 9-9. That sets us at 14-17 at worst or 17-14 at best, with a VERY young team. That's just speculation, we don't even know who we are going to play besides Mont St and Dever again. But I don't see us losing these games badly. I see us competing as a young team, McClains drop off year, we just downright sucked! I honestly have no Idea how we even got 11 wins with Jay Straight. Plus, we played one on one, throw up a stupid shot with three guys on you contested shots! This team will be learning team ball and camaraderie. That alone makes a team stronger. And we only lose one senior. This team is going to be together and grow together for what seems like a long three years for this conf.
We will be fine going into the next few years, plus our senior class probably just helped us with recruiting in the future with the conf title and NCAA tourney bid. So here's to even better recruiting in the future! Go POKES!!!

Exactly - and Wyoming & BSU stepped up. Overrated - nah. With the mono taking a toll on 2 of our big men and a lack of depth with our big men with Sellars quitting in the middle of the season, Shyatt got the max out of this team that could possibly be done. Besides that, Wyoming was projected to finish 6th this last season. I agree with Leon Rice being COY, but Shyatt was a close second. Overrated - nah.

[DocHolliday]

More stone age offense on display between Virginia and Mich State. Score is 57 49 with 40 seconds left.

If we win, do we really care how it looks?

Exactly! This team may not of had high scoring game, but they were extremely effective around the rim! 166 dunks on the year! That was enough to keep everyone entertained and excited...

I a also agree to a point. Yes, we did play a weaker schedule, but we also went out and won when we needed it the most and it didn't matter who it was. (CSU x2; USU x2; UNLV a few games after their win against Zona; BSU x2)
We can argue all we want about our weak OOC schedule, but we even took it to a few teams
There aswell (NMSU, was well in hand until their two 35 foot 3pt jumpers to end the game made it closer than it was; Southern, people can say they were weak if they want, we humiliated them in WYO and then they almost topped Baylor and ISU among a couple others in their OOC, plus they completely turned their season around and almost won their conf; Colorado, even though they were down this year, played pretty good ball to finish off the season, and still may end with a winning record; We played well at Cali who was having a good run and a decent first year with their new HC.)

Then only teams to really knock down our OOC SOS was FAMU and the second Mont St game, otherwise our schedule was very formidable. Every team has a Stetson and a regional Denver on their schedule.

And if anyone wants to call our conf down, the only reason it was considered down was because the typical big names, UNLV, UNM struggled this year. And their lack of wins was equaled to and surpassed by three other teams that just generally don't receive notoriety, (CSU 27-7, WYO 25-10, and BSU 25-9) if either of these three teams had traded this years success with both UNM and UNLV, everyone (media) would be talking up the MWC more than they did this year. It wouldn't have been considered a down year.
WYO played some very talented teams this year and won, doing it our way. Our talent has excelled in each recruiting class, and I believe we will actually see these fresh become the "next" great senior class, that will surpass this senior class. And that is what we want! It shows program growth. Will we drop off next year? A little.
I said it in another thread (just speculating with an OOC a little tougher than this year) this team will be finding its niche, and will probably do a 8-5 type OOC record, based on what is coming back in the conf, I think we could see WYO anywhere from 6-12 to 9-9. That sets us at 14-17 at worst or 17-14 at best, with a VERY young team. That's just speculation, we don't even know who we are going to play besides Mont St and Dever again. But I don't see us losing these games badly. I see us competing as a young team, McClains drop off year, we just downright sucked! I honestly have no Idea how we even got 11 wins with Jay Straight. Plus, we played one on one, throw up a stupid shot with three guys on you contested shots! This team will be learning team ball and camaraderie. That alone makes a team stronger. And we only lose one senior. This team is going to be together and grow together for what seems like a long three years for this conf.
We will be fine going into the next few years, plus our senior class probably just helped us with recruiting in the future with the conf title and NCAA tourney bid. So here's to even better recruiting in the future! Go POKES!!!

Exactly - and Wyoming & BSU stepped up. Overrated - nah. With the mono taking a toll on 2 of our big men and a lack of depth with our big men with Sellars quitting in the middle of the season, Shyatt got the max out of this team that could possibly be done. Besides that, Wyoming was projected to finish 6th this last season. I agree with Leon Rice being COY, but Shyatt was a close second. Overrated - nah.

I disagree with much of your commentary...but it's another way to look at things.

[ragtimejoe1]

More stone age offense on display between Virginia and Mich State. Score is 57 49 with 40 seconds left.

If we win, do we really care how it looks?

I think the team we see this fall is close to vintage Florida. We will have athletes who can get out and run but will be able to clamp down on D. I am so excited for that, it will address my two favorite things about College Basketball, great D and exciting offense. I just don't think Shyatt has had the personnel yet to play the kind of basketball he is accustomed to.

I should have used /sarcasm. Read my above posts. I've been trying to dispel this ridiculous notion that "controlled" or slow offenses are stone aged or unique to WYO.

It is the opposite. It is a new trend to neutralize superior talent. It is effective and I don't have any problems with it. It will likely lead to a 30 second shot clock, however.

[CowboyCO]

10-21
10-21

Quit yer bitching

[stymeman]

a 30 sec shot clock isn't a bad thing at all

[LanderPoke]

a 30 sec shot clock isn't a bad thing at all

+1

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

a 30 sec shot clock isn't a bad thing at all

I'm torn on this. For a team like Wyoming, UNI, San Diego State, etc. it could be a huge deal. We win games slow and dirty. We suffocate people. We win the possession battle. Think about it this way, this 30 second shot clock is giving, on average 3.6-4 extra possessions a game. Do we beat UNM in Laramie if they have an extra two possessions? Do we beat SDSU at the tourney if they have an extra 3-4 possession there at the end? I don't know. It scares me to see a rule implemented that is a direct attack on teams who play slow down, grind it out kind of basketball. It really aggravates me that a rule like this is being tossed around because of teams like Wyoming and the others mentioned. Defense is what makes College Basketball what it is and rules like this seem to want to take Defense out. If I wanted nothing but offense I'd watch the NBA.