Bowl win shine already worn off?

[307bball]

Well...as the topic subject says...not feeling that great here in Wyonation. I think we are observing some off the harsher realities of moving on from a long term respected coach. Is anybody else getting actual Joe Glenn 2.0 vibes at this point from Sawvell? That got leveled at Bohl in the past but in didn't really end up fitting. Glenn ultimately could not distinguish himself from the bottom of the conference. I just can't shake the feeling that we are headed there again.

It just seems like there is something rotten going on ... I think everybody that follows Wyoming sports closely would agree that is the case even while they disagree vehemently on where the rottenness is coming from. Some point to a "good-ole-boy" system and mentality of nepotism and mediocrity...others are demoralized by the realities of the issues facing Wyoming from a market and recruiting perception (both player and coach) standpoint. What is the answer? I believe it is context dependant. Is the program vying for last place in the conference year after year? I would say that is mostly an internal problem...at that point you are not even making the most of the cards you have been dealt. Is the program functional but forever unable to make the leap and be considered among the conference elite? Definitely look inward, but at that point, you are swimming in waters with entrenched interests that are resistant to change that you do not control. If there is no acknowledgment of that fact, you will forever be frustrated.

For context, if you look at the last 8 years...Wyoming is right in the middle of the conference in total conference wins. That is a bit misleading because there is a big drop off after Wyoming. We were just one conference win per year from being better than every MW team over that stretch except for BSU. if you give HAW and SJSU one more conference win per year over that stretch, they barely get ahead of Wyoming. The best argument that Wyoming can win it all is the USU championship...I don't think anybody would give up the wins we have over CSU and others in the MW for the SJSU pandemic tainted 2020 title. USU and Wyoming are nearly identical over that stretch with the aggies having one more victory than Wyoming. Every team above Wyoming in that ranking has a conference championship and one team below us (SJSU) does as well. It may have been the bad luck of playing in the division with a dominant BSU that had the most impact on Wyoming not making more championship games....BSU appeared in every title game over that stretch except for Wyoming and USU in one game apiece. **Edited** AFA has not won a title or appeared in a title game during the last 8 years...also could be a by-product of playing in the same division as a dominant BSU.

All this to say, if Sawvell is just a teeny-tiny bit better than Bohl, we will appear in multiple CCG's and probably win one over the next 8 years....now that assumes everything else stays the same and that probably ain't happening.

[McPeachy]

I have to promote giving it a chance (Sawvel & Johnson & Bohl). How long of a chance is where things become convoluted. There should be NO dropoff from 2023 to 2024. I think we are better at QB, still solid on D, and solid at RB, with Waylee, Ferrell, and the anticipated return of McNeely. If we end up having a rough season in 2024, then I would need to give it 2025. If 2025 shows little to no improvement, or a decrease in any way - then it is time to clean house, top down.

[LanderPoke]

I am optimistic. I don't get any sense of doom and gloom at all - maybe only from a couple Wyonation members. IMO we're right there. Just need to improve the offense and keep continuity on defense

[307bball]

I am optimistic. I don't get any sense of doom and gloom at all - maybe only from a couple Wyonation members. IMO we're right there. Just need to improve the offense and keep continuity on defense

Ok...good to hear...I'm sort of coming around to this way of thinking...but it's not coming easy.

[LanderPoke]

Well...as the topic subject says...not feeling that great here in Wyonation. I think we are observing some off the harsher realities of moving on from a long term respected coach. Is anybody else getting actual Joe Glenn 2.0 vibes at this point from Sawvell? That got leveled at Bohl in the past but in didn't really end up fitting. Glenn ultimately could not distinguish himself from the bottom of the conference. I just can't shake the feeling that we are headed there again.

It just seems like there is something rotten going on ... I think everybody that follows Wyoming sports closely would agree that is the case even while they disagree vehemently on where the rottenness is coming from. Some point to a "good-ole-boy" system and mentality of nepotism and mediocrity...others are demoralized by the realities of the issues facing Wyoming from a market and recruiting perception (both player and coach) standpoint. What is the answer? I believe it is context dependant. Is the program vying for last place in the conference year after year? I would say that is mostly an internal problem...at that point you are not even making the most of the cards you have been dealt. Is the program functional but forever unable to make the leap and be considered among the conference elite? Definitely look inward, but at that point, you are swimming in waters with entrenched interests that are resistant to change that you do not control. If there is no acknowledgment of that fact, you will forever be frustrated.

For context, if you look at the last 8 years...Wyoming is right in the middle of the conference in total conference wins. That is a bit misleading because there is a big drop off after Wyoming. We were just one conference win per year from being better than every MW team over that stretch except for BSU. if you give HAW and SJSU one more conference win per year over that stretch, they barely get ahead of Wyoming. The best argument that Wyoming can win it all is the USU championship...I don't think anybody would give up the wins we have over CSU and others in the MW for the SJSU pandemic tainted 2020 title. USU and Wyoming are nearly identical over that stretch with the aggies having one more victory than Wyoming. Every team above Wyoming in that ranking has a conference championship and one team below us (SJSU) does as well. It may have been the bad luck of playing in the division with a dominant BSU that had the most impact on Wyoming not making more championship games....BSU appeared in every title game over that stretch except for Wyoming and USU in one game apiece.

All this to say, if Sawvell is just a teeny-tiny bit better than Bohl, we will appear in multiple CCG's and probably win one over the next 8 years....now that assumes everything else stays the same and that probably ain't happening.

Can you post conference win totals from the time period you stated? I would like to see that

[OrediggerPoke]

I agree with the belief that We should be pretty good next year considering the experience returning and continuity. The real question is whether we are very good in a couple of years.

[LawPoke]

Well...as the topic subject says...not feeling that great here in Wyonation. I think we are observing some off the harsher realities of moving on from a long term respected coach. Is anybody else getting actual Joe Glenn 2.0 vibes at this point from Sawvell? That got leveled at Bohl in the past but in didn't really end up fitting. Glenn ultimately could not distinguish himself from the bottom of the conference. I just can't shake the feeling that we are headed there again.

It just seems like there is something rotten going on ... I think everybody that follows Wyoming sports closely would agree that is the case even while they disagree vehemently on where the rottenness is coming from. Some point to a "good-ole-boy" system and mentality of nepotism and mediocrity...others are demoralized by the realities of the issues facing Wyoming from a market and recruiting perception (both player and coach) standpoint. What is the answer? I believe it is context dependant. Is the program vying for last place in the conference year after year? I would say that is mostly an internal problem...at that point you are not even making the most of the cards you have been dealt. Is the program functional but forever unable to make the leap and be considered among the conference elite? Definitely look inward, but at that point, you are swimming in waters with entrenched interests that are resistant to change that you do not control. If there is no acknowledgment of that fact, you will forever be frustrated.

For context, if you look at the last 8 years...Wyoming is right in the middle of the conference in total conference wins. That is a bit misleading because there is a big drop off after Wyoming. We were just one conference win per year from being better than every MW team over that stretch except for BSU. if you give HAW and SJSU one more conference win per year over that stretch, they barely get ahead of Wyoming. The best argument that Wyoming can win it all is the USU championship...I don't think anybody would give up the wins we have over CSU and others in the MW for the SJSU pandemic tainted 2020 title. USU and Wyoming are nearly identical over that stretch with the aggies having one more victory than Wyoming. Every team above Wyoming in that ranking has a conference championship and one team below us (SJSU) does as well. It may have been the bad luck of playing in the division with a dominant BSU that had the most impact on Wyoming not making more championship games....BSU appeared in every title game over that stretch except for Wyoming and USU in one game apiece. **Edited** AFA has not won a title or appeared in a title game during the last 8 years...also could be a by-product of playing in the same division as a dominant BSU.

All this to say, if Sawvell is just a teeny-tiny bit better than Bohl, we will appear in multiple CCG's and probably win one over the next 8 years....now that assumes everything else stays the same and that probably ain't happening.

This is a very interesting topic. Before you ask where the rotten smell emanates from, you need to ask whether people actually think/understand that it is rotten in the first place. Most people living in Worland or Thermopolis or on a pig farm don't notice the smell after a while. I think that is true with Wyoming today (the university, athletics and the state as a whole). In football, we want to erect monuments to a guy that had a 61-60 record here and won Barstool and Tater Bowls. In men's basketball, we have been to the tournament a handful of times and generally sucked air every other year with little actual pressure applied to the AD, coach or players. Women's basketball has had success that most of us can and should celebrate. Volleyball is ok - but on a bit of decline. Soccer - no one cares but regressed this year. Wrestling - some care but is middlin' none-the-less.

Burman and coaches talk about winning MW championships as the standard. None currently meet or are really close to that standard - with the possible exception of women's basketball. My question for PokeNation is: what is your expectation for Wyoming athletics? I would suggest, based on my experience on this board and in the Wildcatter Club and other venues, most couldn't care less about championships and are more than content with .500 teams so long as we can socialize, travel to Vegas for the MW Tourney, go to Arizona for a bowl, and act like fat cats from time to time (despite what they chortle about in the coffee shop). If they did care about championships, we would have had a different AD a long time ago, Bohl would have been fired 5 years ago, and Linder would be clearly on notice that he is on a very short leash and needs to get his poop in a group or pack his U-haul. Greatness isn't our thing - being ok is our ugly brown Lay-Z-Boy recliner. We fear failure and relish the thought that we have everything paid for and the Oldsmobile still runs. And we have every excuse why we can't and won't be great cued up to play for the upstart that may challenge our place in line at the Wildcatter buffet. We are too small. The weather is bad. We don't have the money. Laramie is a crummy town. Coaches' wives hate Laramie. I've heard them all. Every one of those excuses have a fix or perfume that can be applied to it - what is missing is the drive, determination, resolve, and willingness to hold our leaders, fans, and players to account for the goal. There are a lot of really mid places in this country with really great programs because they have dedicated themselves to being great. For some reason, we won't even try. So - what is a reasonable goal for UW athletics and are we willing to TRULY hold those that don't meet it accountable?

[OrediggerPoke]

So - what is a reasonable goal for UW athletics and are we willing to TRULY hold those that don't meet it accountable?

Sure, let’s start with accountability. The first step often starts with the mirror. How much money did you spend in the last year to keep Emmanuel Pregnon (football), Tierney Barlow (volleyball), Graham Ike (basketball), Stephen Buchanan (wrestling) as Cowboys/Cowgirls?

I spent $0 toward players.

[LanderPoke]

So - what is a reasonable goal for UW athletics and are we willing to TRULY hold those that don't meet it accountable?

Sure, let’s start with accountability. The first step often starts with the mirror. How much money did you spend in the last year to keep Emmanuel Pregnon (football), Tierney Barlow (volleyball), Graham Ike (basketball), Stephen Buchanan (wrestling) as Cowboys/Cowgirls?

I spent $0 toward players.

Nothing was keeping Barlow, I can tell you that

[OrediggerPoke]

Sure, let’s start with accountability. The first step often starts with the mirror. How much money did you spend in the last year to keep Emmanuel Pregnon (football), Tierney Barlow (volleyball), Graham Ike (basketball), Stephen Buchanan (wrestling) as Cowboys/Cowgirls?

I spent $0 toward players.

Nothing was keeping Barlow, I can tell you that

So she way lying before?
https://www.wyomingnews.com/wyosports/u ... d4dc5.html

[LanderPoke]

Nothing was keeping Barlow, I can tell you that

So she way lying before?
https://www.wyomingnews.com/wyosports/u ... d4dc5.html

Sure, if you want to call it that. She is LDS and wanted to be around more LDS people. She almost left after last year and had to be convinced to stay. No amount of realistic money would have changed her decision. She did not like it here

[LawPoke]

So - what is a reasonable goal for UW athletics and are we willing to TRULY hold those that don't meet it accountable?

Sure, let’s start with accountability. The first step often starts with the mirror. How much money did you spend in the last year to keep Emmanuel Pregnon (football), Tierney Barlow (volleyball), Graham Ike (basketball), Stephen Buchanan (wrestling) as Cowboys/Cowgirls?

I spent $0 toward players.

I spent $0. I also reduced my contribution to CJC and UW. You know why? No commitment from the University or athletic department to spend it for greatness. They profile a flat return on capital. I expect more. Show me you want to be great and churn my dollar - I’m in. Right now, all I get is a shoulder ride for a .500 football coach and comments from the department about how amazing he was for Wyoming.

Now, back to my question: what is a reasonable expectation for success at UW?

[307bball]

So she way lying before?
https://www.wyomingnews.com/wyosports/u ... d4dc5.html

Sure, if you want to call it that. She is LDS and wanted to be around more LDS people. She almost left after last year and had to be convinced to stay. No amount of realistic money would have changed her decision. She did not like it here

I bet there is an amount that would have kept her.... What you and I consider "realistic" is irrelevant. I'm consistently stunned at the bags being thrown at these athletes.

[OrediggerPoke]

Sure, let’s start with accountability. The first step often starts with the mirror. How much money did you spend in the last year to keep Emmanuel Pregnon (football), Tierney Barlow (volleyball), Graham Ike (basketball), Stephen Buchanan (wrestling) as Cowboys/Cowgirls?

I spent $0 toward players.

I spent $0. I also reduced my contribution to CJC and UW. You know why? No commitment from the University or athletic department to spend it for greatness. They profile a flat return on capital. I expect more. Show me you want to be great and churn my dollar - I’m in. Right now, all I get is a shoulder ride for a .500 football coach and comments from the department about how amazing he was for Wyoming.

Now, back to my question: what is a reasonable expectation for success at UW?

Sorry but if you go to McDonalds because you like the price and convenience but are expecting a perfectly cooked Ribeye Steak you are always bound to be disappointed.

Considering where Wyoming falls in player NIL, 9 wins (with a win over Texas Tech where spending and player payments dwarf ours), is a damn good season.

[OrediggerPoke]

Sure, if you want to call it that. She is LDS and wanted to be around more LDS people. She almost left after last year and had to be convinced to stay. No amount of realistic money would have changed her decision. She did not like it here

I bet there is an amount that would have kept her.... What you and I consider "realistic" is irrelevant. I'm consistently stunned at the bags being thrown at these athletes.

Rumor is Nebraska just threw a high 6 figure deal at a volleyball player.

[McPeachy]

Well...as the topic subject says...not feeling that great here in Wyonation. I think we are observing some off the harsher realities of moving on from a long term respected coach. Is anybody else getting actual Joe Glenn 2.0 vibes at this point from Sawvell? That got leveled at Bohl in the past but in didn't really end up fitting. Glenn ultimately could not distinguish himself from the bottom of the conference. I just can't shake the feeling that we are headed there again.

It just seems like there is something rotten going on ... I think everybody that follows Wyoming sports closely would agree that is the case even while they disagree vehemently on where the rottenness is coming from. Some point to a "good-ole-boy" system and mentality of nepotism and mediocrity...others are demoralized by the realities of the issues facing Wyoming from a market and recruiting perception (both player and coach) standpoint. What is the answer? I believe it is context dependant. Is the program vying for last place in the conference year after year? I would say that is mostly an internal problem...at that point you are not even making the most of the cards you have been dealt. Is the program functional but forever unable to make the leap and be considered among the conference elite? Definitely look inward, but at that point, you are swimming in waters with entrenched interests that are resistant to change that you do not control. If there is no acknowledgment of that fact, you will forever be frustrated.

For context, if you look at the last 8 years...Wyoming is right in the middle of the conference in total conference wins. That is a bit misleading because there is a big drop off after Wyoming. We were just one conference win per year from being better than every MW team over that stretch except for BSU. if you give HAW and SJSU one more conference win per year over that stretch, they barely get ahead of Wyoming. The best argument that Wyoming can win it all is the USU championship...I don't think anybody would give up the wins we have over CSU and others in the MW for the SJSU pandemic tainted 2020 title. USU and Wyoming are nearly identical over that stretch with the aggies having one more victory than Wyoming. Every team above Wyoming in that ranking has a conference championship and one team below us (SJSU) does as well. It may have been the bad luck of playing in the division with a dominant BSU that had the most impact on Wyoming not making more championship games....BSU appeared in every title game over that stretch except for Wyoming and USU in one game apiece. **Edited** AFA has not won a title or appeared in a title game during the last 8 years...also could be a by-product of playing in the same division as a dominant BSU.

All this to say, if Sawvell is just a teeny-tiny bit better than Bohl, we will appear in multiple CCG's and probably win one over the next 8 years....now that assumes everything else stays the same and that probably ain't happening.

This is a very interesting topic. Before you ask where the rotten smell emanates from, you need to ask whether people actually think/understand that it is rotten in the first place. Most people living in Worland or Thermopolis or on a pig farm don't notice the smell after a while. I think that is true with Wyoming today (the university, athletics and the state as a whole). In football, we want to erect monuments to a guy that had a 61-60 record here and won Barstool and Tater Bowls. In men's basketball, we have been to the tournament a handful of times and generally sucked air every other year with little actual pressure applied to the AD, coach or players. Women's basketball has had success that most of us can and should celebrate. Volleyball is ok - but on a bit of decline. Soccer - no one cares but regressed this year. Wrestling - some care but is middlin' none-the-less.

Burman and coaches talk about winning MW championships as the standard. None currently meet or are really close to that standard - with the possible exception of women's basketball. My question for PokeNation is: what is your expectation for Wyoming athletics? I would suggest, based on my experience on this board and in the Wildcatter Club and other venues, most couldn't care less about championships and are more than content with .500 teams so long as we can socialize, travel to Vegas for the MW Tourney, go to Arizona for a bowl, and act like fat cats from time to time (despite what they chortle about in the coffee shop). If they did care about championships, we would have had a different AD a long time ago, Bohl would have been fired 5 years ago, and Linder would be clearly on notice that he is on a very short leash and needs to get his poop in a group or pack his U-haul. Greatness isn't our thing - being ok is our ugly brown Lay-Z-Boy recliner. We fear failure and relish the thought that we have everything paid for and the Oldsmobile still runs. And we have every excuse why we can't and won't be great cued up to play for the upstart that may challenge our place in line at the Wildcatter buffet. We are too small. The weather is bad. We don't have the money. Laramie is a crummy town. Coaches' wives hate Laramie. I've heard them all. Every one of those excuses have a fix or perfume that can be applied to it - what is missing is the drive, determination, resolve, and willingness to hold our leaders, fans, and players to account for the goal. There are a lot of really mid places in this country with really great programs because they have dedicated themselves to being great. For some reason, we won't even try. So - what is a reasonable goal for UW athletics and are we willing to TRULY hold those that don't meet it accountable?

Solid post Law, solid post.

[McPeachy]

Sure, if you want to call it that. She is LDS and wanted to be around more LDS people. She almost left after last year and had to be convinced to stay. No amount of realistic money would have changed her decision. She did not like it here

I bet there is an amount that would have kept her.... What you and I consider "realistic" is irrelevant. I'm consistently stunned at the bags being thrown at these athletes.

You and me both...with no end in site.

Steinbrenner paid $8.8 million for the Yankees in 1973. and people lost their mind. Current value is $7.1 billion (with a B).

I see college football following a similar path - going out of control fast...in fact, it is likely already on it's way.

[307bball]

Sure, let’s start with accountability. The first step often starts with the mirror. How much money did you spend in the last year to keep Emmanuel Pregnon (football), Tierney Barlow (volleyball), Graham Ike (basketball), Stephen Buchanan (wrestling) as Cowboys/Cowgirls?

I spent $0 toward players.

I spent $0. I also reduced my contribution to CJC and UW. You know why? No commitment from the University or athletic department to spend it for greatness. They profile a flat return on capital. I expect more. Show me you want to be great and churn my dollar - I’m in. Right now, all I get is a shoulder ride for a .500 football coach and comments from the department about how amazing he was for Wyoming.

Now, back to my question: what is a reasonable expectation for success at UW?

That's a bit in the eye of the beholder right?...for me...What CB accomplished seams "reasonable"...I would have liked more but that is not the question right?

[307bball]

Can you post conference win totals from the time period you stated? I would like to see that

Sure..I can. These are conference win totals. Actually did not include Nevada the first time...That takes us out of the middle and into the top half (barely). Wyoming is the bottom of the top half and Nevada is the top of the bottom half.


Best of the best:
BSU 53

Super solid:
SDSU 39
AFA 37
FRES 36

Medium:
USU 34
WYO 33

The Rest:
NEV 28
HAW 27
SJSU 24
CSU 24
UNLV 22

The debacle:
UNM 13

[307bball]

This is a very interesting topic. Before you ask where the rotten smell emanates from, you need to ask whether people actually think/understand that it is rotten in the first place. Most people living in Worland or Thermopolis or on a pig farm don't notice the smell after a while. I think that is true with Wyoming today (the university, athletics and the state as a whole). In football, we want to erect monuments to a guy that had a 61-60 record here and won Barstool and Tater Bowls. In men's basketball, we have been to the tournament a handful of times and generally sucked air every other year with little actual pressure applied to the AD, coach or players. Women's basketball has had success that most of us can and should celebrate. Volleyball is ok - but on a bit of decline. Soccer - no one cares but regressed this year. Wrestling - some care but is middlin' none-the-less.

Burman and coaches talk about winning MW championships as the standard. None currently meet or are really close to that standard - with the possible exception of women's basketball. My question for PokeNation is: what is your expectation for Wyoming athletics? I would suggest, based on my experience on this board and in the Wildcatter Club and other venues, most couldn't care less about championships and are more than content with .500 teams so long as we can socialize, travel to Vegas for the MW Tourney, go to Arizona for a bowl, and act like fat cats from time to time (despite what they chortle about in the coffee shop). If they did care about championships, we would have had a different AD a long time ago, Bohl would have been fired 5 years ago, and Linder would be clearly on notice that he is on a very short leash and needs to get his poop in a group or pack his U-haul. Greatness isn't our thing - being ok is our ugly brown Lay-Z-Boy recliner. We fear failure and relish the thought that we have everything paid for and the Oldsmobile still runs. And we have every excuse why we can't and won't be great cued up to play for the upstart that may challenge our place in line at the Wildcatter buffet. We are too small. The weather is bad. We don't have the money. Laramie is a crummy town. Coaches' wives hate Laramie. I've heard them all. Every one of those excuses have a fix or perfume that can be applied to it - what is missing is the drive, determination, resolve, and willingness to hold our leaders, fans, and players to account for the goal. There are a lot of really mid places in this country with really great programs because they have dedicated themselves to being great. For some reason, we won't even try. So - what is a reasonable goal for UW athletics and are we willing to TRULY hold those that don't meet it accountable?

Solid post Law, solid post.

Law, you make good points...and the generalities of what you are describing could definitely be at play. Could you clear up some things?

You said "what is missing is the drive, determination, resolve, and willingness to hold our leaders, fans, and players to account for the goal". Who is that missing from?