Bold Decisions Must Be Made To Take Wyoming Football To The Next Level

[DVDA]

Just a little update. With the conf championship games in the book. Every single conference champion this season had an offense that averaged over 30 points per game.

Even during the SEC title game, the commentators were talking about LSU and coach O. He told them you can't win in college football anymore running the ball and playing good defense. You have to be able to pass and score points.

LSU on offense and at QB has been especially bad for many years. Yet, they were still highly ranked and won many games. They make a change with the OC then found a top-flight QB and they are SEC champs and have a shot at a national title.

Will Wyoming learn from this? Probably not. The first step to fixing a problem is admitting you have one.

We need to be like everyone else in college football and run a spread and bring in an innovative offensive mind because that’s the only possible way Wyoming can win games. Can Bohl. How about Dave Christensen? I heard he was great at Missouri and is an offensive guru. I bet he will take Wyoming to the CFP.

Also, once we completely switch our football philosophy, we will then be able to out recruit and take the recruits from Ohio State, LSU and Boise State which have allowed those programs to be successful. What a great and simple solution!

Every. f-word. Time. False narrative. Please stop beating a horse that was never alive to begin with.

[ragtimejoe1]

Oredigger, do you personally know Vigen? If not, it isn't that hard of a concept; the Pro-Style Physical Offense needs to improve WITHIN that scheme in order to compete for championships.

The offense 5 out of 6 years won't cut it. We had a solid D against one of the easiest schedules we'll have. Without looking, so I might be wrong, but I'll bet it's the easiest we've had in 20 years and still didn't sniff a championship.

If know Vigen personally, then I get it. Otherwise, to defend him and the offensive production so staunchly is mind boggling. The limitations on offense are just so obvious that it really isn't debatable.

[Subcanis]

Just a little update. With the conf championship games in the book. Every single conference champion this season had an offense that averaged over 30 points per game.

Even during the SEC title game, the commentators were talking about LSU and coach O. He told them you can't win in college football anymore running the ball and playing good defense. You have to be able to pass and score points.

LSU on offense and at QB has been especially bad for many years. Yet, they were still highly ranked and won many games. They make a change with the OC then found a top-flight QB and they are SEC champs and have a shot at a national title.

Will Wyoming learn from this? Probably not. The first step to fixing a problem is admitting you have one.

We need to be like everyone else in college football and run a spread and bring in an innovative offensive mind because that’s the only possible way Wyoming can win games. Can Bohl. How about Dave Christensen? I heard he was great at Missouri and is an offensive guru. I bet he will take Wyoming to the CFP.

Also, once we completely switch our football philosophy, we will then be able to out recruit and take the recruits from Ohio State, LSU and Boise State which have allowed those programs to be successful. What a great and simple solution!

Every. f***[*]. Time. False narrative. Please stop beating a horse that was never alive to begin with.

No poop. Apparently the only way to have a functioning pass game is to switch to the f-word air raid. Morons.

[Wicks]

My faith in humanity is restored with these recent replies. Thank you all.

[OrediggerPoke]

Oredigger, do you personally know Vigen? If not, it isn't that hard of a concept; the Pro-Style Physical Offense needs to improve WITHIN that scheme in order to compete for championships.

The offense 5 out of 6 years won't cut it. We had a solid D against one of the easiest schedules we'll have. Without looking, so I might be wrong, but I'll bet it's the easiest we've had in 20 years and still didn't sniff a championship.

If know Vigen personally, then I get it. Otherwise, to defend him and the offensive production so staunchly is mind boggling. The limitations on offense are just so obvious that it really isn't debatable.

Yea I followed the cowboys since the 90s just so I could defend Vigen someday...

I’ve never been pro or anti Vigen. I support Bohl because he knows how to make a program like Wyoming successful and all those demanding a change in his offensive philosophy are asking for a HC change plain and simple. It is the same thing. This is Bohl’s offense and Bohl’s system! How hard is that to understand? I’ve said all along the decision whether to stay with or get a new OC should be Bohl’s and Bohl’s alone.

So yea Wicks, you are right we can throw the ball around a lot more and probably score a few more points. But with that will likely come more turnovers and more 3 and outs. Pick your poison. You have to coach to your players strengths. Chambers and TVW should not be throwing the ball 30 times a game because that is not their skill set. Williams appears to be a more competent passer and we shall see what he brings to the table. I actually like the idea of a 2 QB system next year with Williams and Chambers and I have a feeling that is what we will see.

[ragtimejoe1]

It is Bohl's decision, agreed; just like it was Glenn's to stick with Cockhill too long.

That said, have you ever considered that the exact same offense could be used with more creativity and rhythm WITHOUT changing schemes or having turnovers. You don't have faith in players. Ok. The rest of us are saying the players aren't put in spots to be successful. Exactly like the D was a few years ago. In other words, we have faith in the players not the OC. NO THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE CHANGE FROM BOHL'S OFFENSE. Just get someone more competent in charge of it.

[jessejames02]

...
I’ve never been pro or anti Vigen. I support Bohl because he knows how to make a program like Wyoming successful and all those demanding a change in his offensive philosophy are asking for a HC change plain and simple. It is the same thing. This is Bohl’s offense and Bohl’s system! How hard is that to understand? I’ve said all along the decision whether to stay with or get a new OC should be Bohl’s and Bohl’s alone.
...

This is the mindset difference. 3 winning seasons and a sub .500 record doesn’t seem like success to everyone here. And people aren’t necessarily calling for The administration to undercut Bohl. We want to know the team is on the right course. I think most of us are in the “Bohl” camp but I’ll totally admit that if next year is 6-6 or worse I won’t be anymore.
If this team isn’t an 8 win team next year, it’s hard to imagine Bohl being above .500 by the time he hits a decade.

[DVDA]

Oredigger, do you personally know Vigen? If not, it isn't that hard of a concept; the Pro-Style Physical Offense needs to improve WITHIN that scheme in order to compete for championships.

The offense 5 out of 6 years won't cut it. We had a solid D against one of the easiest schedules we'll have. Without looking, so I might be wrong, but I'll bet it's the easiest we've had in 20 years and still didn't sniff a championship.

If know Vigen personally, then I get it. Otherwise, to defend him and the offensive production so staunchly is mind boggling. The limitations on offense are just so obvious that it really isn't debatable.

Yea I followed the cowboys since the 90s just so I could defend Vigen someday...

I’ve never been pro or anti Vigen. I support Bohl because he knows how to make a program like Wyoming successful and all those demanding a change in his offensive philosophy are asking for a HC change plain and simple. It is the same thing. This is Bohl’s offense and Bohl’s system! How hard is that to understand? I’ve said all along the decision whether to stay with or get a new OC should be Bohl’s and Bohl’s alone.

So yea Wicks, you are right we can throw the ball around a lot more and probably score a few more points. But with that will likely come more turnovers and more 3 and outs. Pick your poison. You have to coach to your players strengths. Chambers and TVW should not be throwing the ball 30 times a game because that is not their skill set. Williams appears to be a more competent passer and we shall see what he brings to the table. I actually like the idea of a 2 QB system next year with Williams and Chambers and I have a feeling that is what we will see.

No one is asking for a change in philosophy. Why is that so hard for you to understand? You can be a good running team that also completes more than 50% of your passes and scores points. People are asking for a new offensive coordinator. They're not asking for a new offensive philosophy. Vigen has shown he isn't capable of producing a good offense. It's time to move on just like it was time to move on from Stanard.

[bullbugle307]

For the record, I don't give a damn what kind of an offense we run as long as they figure out how to generate more first downs and points and keep the turnovers and time of possession at a reasonable level. Theres plenty of different types of offenses and play calling philosophies that can check those boxes. Im not stuck to some one way only football idealism on offense.

When are we gonna realize weve built a damn good defense independent of our offensive philosophy and play calling? I understand our offense is built to help our D, and sometimes it does (when it's not churning out 3 and outs and suffering injuries like there's no tomorrow so we have no offense left by the end of the season). But we have to quit giving the bulk of the credit for our defensive success to Bohl/Vigens offensive philosophy when it should be going to the coordinators, coaches, players, and play callers on that side of the ball. It's ridiculous how far some of you guys will go to defend our offense at this point. You act like this piss poor excuse for an offense is the only reason our defense is good. Give me a break. The defense is our strength, we need to leverage that, not act like it's a liability. With the defenses we've had the last two years, I'd gladly take 6, 8, maybe even 10 more turnovers on offense throughout the season if it meant we'd scored significantly more points. Why? Because our defense would've probably bailed us out on a few of those turnovers with no points against and kept the opposing offense to field goals on several more of them, and as a result I'd bet we would've won more games.

Bohl, Vigen, and several of the people on this forum are more concerned with shaping the offense around smash mouth football and being happy with whatever results that brings than they are about being innovative, smart, and being willing to change to find the best results possible. They have their beliefs about how to do things and reality be damned. People love it because it's the Wyoming way and that's how we do just about everything around here. So many people here try to form reality around beliefs, rather than beliefs around reality. And it ain't gonna change until it's absolutely forced to, cause that's how we do things in the Cowboy State.

[307bball]

I understand our offense is built to help our D, and sometimes it does (when it's not churning out 3 and outs and suffering injuries like there's no tomorrow so we have no offense left by the end of the season).

Suffering injuries like there's no tomorrow has no correlation to offensive style or whoever is calling the plays....I'm not happy that Wyoming got more snakebit than usual by injuries this last year but it's definitely not Vigen's fault. The biggest risk factor to getting injured in football is not style of offense...it's lining up to play a down. Go look up injury rate data in college and NFL ... you won't find even a correlation between "smashmouth" football and injury rate...much less causation.

I think a bridge between the two general camps, as it relates to this topic, can be built. There are some things that both sides need to acknowledge:

1. Having a low risk offense helps a defense.
2. Wyoming's offense is definitely holding the team back.
3. If Wyoming's offense improves without an accompanying slide by the defense we would be a juggernaut.
4. Number 3 is not trivial to achieve (all of the teams that play football are trying to do some version of this).

Can this at least be agreed to without qualifications?

[kdwrightuwyo]

Like others have stated, we aren't advocating for the spread. Having a run heavy O is fine, if you can throw the ball effectively and take the pressure off the RBs. Oh, and with that effective passing game, you'll keep the time of possession lopsided in our favor...like CB wants. BUT instead we can't throw the ball and are losing time of possession because we run up the gut against 7-9 defenders twice, throw an inc, then punt most possessions.

[kdwrightuwyo]

For the record, I don't give a damn what kind of an offense we run as long as they figure out how to generate more first downs and points and keep the turnovers and time of possession at a reasonable level. Theres plenty of different types of offenses and play calling philosophies that can check those boxes. Im not stuck to some one way only football idealism on offense.

When are we gonna realize weve built a damn good defense independent of our offensive philosophy and play calling? I understand our offense is built to help our D, and sometimes it does (when it's not churning out 3 and outs and suffering injuries like there's no tomorrow so we have no offense left by the end of the season). But we have to quit giving the bulk of the credit for our defensive success to Bohl/Vigens offensive philosophy when it should be going to the coordinators, coaches, players, and play callers on that side of the ball. It's ridiculous how far some of you guys will go to defend our offense at this point. You act like this piss poor excuse for an offense is the only reason our defense is good. Give me a break. The defense is our strength, we need to leverage that, not act like it's a liability. With the defenses we've had the last two years, I'd gladly take 6, 8, maybe even 10 more turnovers on offense throughout the season if it meant we'd scored significantly more points. Why? Because our defense would've probably bailed us out on a few of those turnovers with no points against and kept the opposing offense to field goals on several more of them, and as a result I'd bet we would've won more games.

Bohl, Vigen, and several of the people on this forum are more concerned with shaping the offense around smash mouth football and being happy with whatever results that brings than they are about being innovative, smart, and being willing to change to find the best results possible. They have their beliefs about how to do things and reality be damned. People love it because it's the Wyoming way and that's how we do just about everything around here. So many people here try to form reality around beliefs, rather than beliefs around reality. And it ain't gonna change until it's absolutely forced to, cause that's how we do things in the Cowboy State.

Even Coach Bohl has explained in the past that we needed a more balanced attack...throwing and running effectively. It's only after we've proven that we can't throw/catch that he's changed his tune to "run it down their throats, no matter how many defenders they throw at us". If you were to ask him over a beer (and without cameras in his face) he'd more than likely admit that to have an outstanding run game, you need to have an equally good passing game to keep the defense honest. And if you're dominate in both, you're going to keep TOP in your favor and more than likely score more than 1 TD per quarter.

[ItSucksToBeACSURam]

Oredigger, do you personally know Vigen? If not, it isn't that hard of a concept; the Pro-Style Physical Offense needs to improve WITHIN that scheme in order to compete for championships.

The offense 5 out of 6 years won't cut it. We had a solid D against one of the easiest schedules we'll have. Without looking, so I might be wrong, but I'll bet it's the easiest we've had in 20 years and still didn't sniff a championship.

If know Vigen personally, then I get it. Otherwise, to defend him and the offensive production so staunchly is mind boggling. The limitations on offense are just so obvious that it really isn't debatable.

Yea I followed the cowboys since the 90s just so I could defend Vigen someday...

I’ve never been pro or anti Vigen. I support Bohl because he knows how to make a program like Wyoming successful and all those demanding a change in his offensive philosophy are asking for a HC change plain and simple. It is the same thing. This is Bohl’s offense and Bohl’s system! How hard is that to understand? I’ve said all along the decision whether to stay with or get a new OC should be Bohl’s and Bohl’s alone.

So yea Wicks, you are right we can throw the ball around a lot more and probably score a few more points. But with that will likely come more turnovers and more 3 and outs. Pick your poison. You have to coach to your players strengths. Chambers and TVW should not be throwing the ball 30 times a game because that is not their skill set. Williams appears to be a more competent passer and we shall see what he brings to the table. I actually like the idea of a 2 QB system next year with Williams and Chambers and I have a feeling that is what we will see.

MORE 3 and Outs? Are you implying we don’t already lead the universe in phoned in, lazy, super vanilla 3 and out possessions? Gimme a break. Of all the excuses to try to justify keeping Vigen around, the fear of MORE 3 and outs isn’t it my friend...

[GetRealMan]

I guess I'm seeing our offensive woes a bit different than running versus passing or changing schematics from smash mouth to finesse. Execution is the number one obstacle keeping the offense from moving the chains.

Bohl's offense is predicated and dependant on "fundementals" that come from something we are woefully missing, and that's talent on the o-line, faster wide recievers, and quicker running back (beyond Valladay).

Some of this is due to injuries and some youth and lack of experience, others is probably bad recruiting choices. But in general if the talent level picks up and fundemental blocking for run and pass are improved even marginally, this offense could work just fine.

Quarterbacks have been recruited to pass from the pocket but instead have to throw on the run while running backs are being tackled behind the line of scrimmage and recievers are not getting open.
If we don't address the lack of talent any scheme changes proposed are dead on arrival.

[LanderPoke]

I guess I'm seeing our offensive woes a bit different than running versus passing or changing schematics from smash mouth to finesse. Execution is the number one obstacle keeping the offense from moving the chains.

Bohl's offense is predicated and dependant on "fundementals" that come from something we are woefully missing, and that's talent on the o-line, faster wide recievers, and quicker running back (beyond Valladay).

Some of this is due to injuries and some youth and lack of experience, others is probably bad recruiting choices. But in general if the talent level picks up and fundemental blocking for run and pass are improved even marginally, this offense could work just fine.

Quarterbacks have been recruited to pass from the pocket but instead have to throw on the run while running backs are being tackled behind the line of scrimmage and recievers are not getting open.
If we don't address the lack of talent any scheme changes proposed are dead on arrival.

You're basically saying that we don't have the talent. I completely disagree. I thought the defense sucked before we hired Standard. I though we just didn't have the horses, but lo and behold we did. They were just being coached down and put in positions to not succeed. As soon as we got a real defensive coordinator they turned into a top-2 MWC defense!

I see players on the offense. I know we could have a good offense if we just make a change to the "architect" of the offense. We need a new OC and Bohl needs to relenquish control of the offense altogether. I'd bet anyone anything that if we put literally anyone else that's a legitimate football coach in charge of the offense that it would more or less transform into a functional MWC offense.

Coaching matter more in football than any other sport in the world.

[ragtimejoe1]

I think the players just play scared. Everyone talking about not screwing it up for the defense appears to be correct and the offense looks it. That's a big part of the problem, imo.

A lot like the QBs under Cockhill; that guy could sure screw up an offense. Coaching isn't about making players scared to screw up.

[OrediggerPoke]

For the record, I don't give a damn what kind of an offense we run as long as they figure out how to generate more first downs and points and keep the turnovers and time of possession at a reasonable level. Theres plenty of different types of offenses and play calling philosophies that can check those boxes. Im not stuck to some one way only football idealism on offense.

When are we gonna realize weve built a damn good defense independent of our offensive philosophy and play calling? I understand our offense is built to help our D, and sometimes it does (when it's not churning out 3 and outs and suffering injuries like there's no tomorrow so we have no offense left by the end of the season). But we have to quit giving the bulk of the credit for our defensive success to Bohl/Vigens offensive philosophy when it should be going to the coordinators, coaches, players, and play callers on that side of the ball. It's ridiculous how far some of you guys will go to defend our offense at this point. You act like this piss poor excuse for an offense is the only reason our defense is good. Give me a break. The defense is our strength, we need to leverage that, not act like it's a liability. With the defenses we've had the last two years, I'd gladly take 6, 8, maybe even 10 more turnovers on offense throughout the season if it meant we'd scored significantly more points. Why? Because our defense would've probably bailed us out on a few of those turnovers with no points against and kept the opposing offense to field goals on several more of them, and as a result I'd bet we would've won more games.

Bohl, Vigen, and several of the people on this forum are more concerned with shaping the offense around smash mouth football and being happy with whatever results that brings than they are about being innovative, smart, and being willing to change to find the best results possible. They have their beliefs about how to do things and reality be damned. People love it because it's the Wyoming way and that's how we do just about everything around here. So many people here try to form reality around beliefs, rather than beliefs around reality. And it ain't gonna change until it's absolutely forced to, cause that's how we do things in the Cowboy State.

Even Coach Bohl has explained in the past that we needed a more balanced attack...throwing and running effectively. It's only after we've proven that we can't throw/catch that he's changed his tune to "run it down their throats, no matter how many defenders they throw at us". If you were to ask him over a beer (and without cameras in his face) he'd more than likely admit that to have an outstanding run game, you need to have an equally good passing game to keep the defense honest. And if you're dominate in both, you're going to keep TOP in your favor and more than likely score more than 1 TD per quarter.

Well said. You must coach to your players' strengths. Right now we don't have the WR talent or accurate QB. However, I'm really high on Marcotte at TE and Williams at QB to throw the ball for the next few years.

[MrTitleist]

Chad's obviously had plenty of takes on this, and him and I talk about this at least once a day.. but from my point of view I think the offense in scheme is fine.. the team is built on both sides of the ball to make the other team quit. You saw it in the Boise State game where after two and a half quarters Boise State got tired of being hit on both sides of the ball. Wyoming physically dominated the Broncos. However, momentum gets lost when you're not converting first downs.. and that's the biggest gripe. We complete passes at a VERY low rate. Even short and intermediate passes are not effective. Boise State eventually recaptured momentum because of the failures of the Cowboy offense to convert hardly any third downs.

To me I think the WR coach carries some fault with this, the position has stagnated and regressed the last few years at UW. The QBs need some mechanics work.. Chambers doesn't have a lot of touch yet, fires a lot of unnecessary and out of control fastballs. Fixable problem. Vander Waal has days of good and bad. Okwoli's career should have taken off more than it did. Conway was basically wasted for two years as a WR running jet sweeps. Guy could have been a MONSTER over the middle. Our offensive line was dominant this year, Bart Miller made an incredible difference.

[seattlecowboy]

I think the offensive line overall was a lot better this year, even with injuries, because we had a better O line coach.

The biggest problem I see is the QB’s can’t throw the ball. I think from what I have seen from Levi so far that problem will be fixed. He is by far the most accurate and best passer of the bunch. The only problem is, will he regress like the others have under the coaching. They need a better OC that can coach the QB’s up and develop them better.

[laxwyo]

When is the last time we had a senior QB that wasn’t a 5th year transfer? Makes you wonder. If Sean can throw a little better or Levi turns out to be great, look out.