A QB Away.....

Everything Wyoming Cowboy and Mountain West football!
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PokeNer
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IMO, this season is over anyways. We have no shot at the MW championship, and a bowl game is unlikely.

Let's open it up and see what the guys can do. Start calling the games like you're down 3 scores.
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bullbugle307
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The only thing I like about our running game is that when teams stack the box, we're one good block and a missed tackle away from a long run. We saw that on the second play of the game yesterday. Unfortunately, the few big runs usually make our running game look much better than it actually is because folks just look at total yards and ypc. Mizzou last year was a great example of that. I think we had something like 22 runs that went for 2 yds or fewer in that game. That has always been our problem. If our run game was able to consistently move the sticks like it's supposed to I would have zero problem with it. I just don't see that ever happening against above average teams with the talent we can recruit and with our predictable play calling.
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Because I left Wyoming for awhile to teach Third Grade in a little town in northern Nevada, I was gone for the entire Joe Tiller regime, and I didn't see many Cowboy games on TV. My sister, who was using my season tickets at The War, sent me a couple of videos and tried to tell me what was happening, but essentially, I was in the dark. My sister did tell me, however, that the fans were really hard on Tiller, and some of you guys have said the same thing. My recollection of THE SAFETY was that Tiller already had the job at Purdue, was sick of the incessant criticism from Cowboy fans, and didn't want to prepare for a bowl game. He wanted OUT of Laramie and wanted to begin his new opportunity. So ... He simply THREW THE GAME. As I recall, we were ahead by five points, with a fourth down inside our own ten yard line. Punting the ball would have required byu to score a touchdown to win. But a safety would put byu down by only three points. Tiller knew that scoring a field goal to tie was much easier than scoring a touchdown to win. Nothing was guaranteed, of course, but Tiller was well-aware of byu's ability to move the ball and score. A touchdown was possible, but a field goal was very likely. ... and overtime would favor byu. Ironically, a friend from Laramie was teaching at my school in that same little town, and we were watching the game on TV together. When the punter took the safety, we both shouted THAT SOB IS THROWING THE GAME! I haven't changed my mind. Was Tiller a traitor, or were Cowboy fans just stupid? I have no opinion, but maybe you do.
WyoGeezer
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Because I left Wyoming for awhile to teach Third Grade in a little town in northern Nevada, I was gone for the entire Joe Tiller regime, and I didn't see many Cowboy games on TV. My sister, who was using my season tickets at The War, sent me a couple of videos and tried to tell me what was happening, but essentially, I was in the dark. My sister did tell me, however, that the fans were really hard on Tiller, and some of you guys have said the same thing. My recollection of THE SAFETY was that Tiller already had the job at Purdue, was sick of the incessant criticism from Cowboy fans, and didn't want to prepare for a bowl game. He wanted OUT of Laramie and wanted to begin his new opportunity. So ... He simply THREW THE GAME. As I recall, we were ahead by five points, with a fourth down inside our own ten yard line. Punting the ball would have required byu to score a touchdown to win. But a safety would put byu down by only three points. Tiller knew that scoring a field goal to tie was much easier than scoring a touchdown to win. Nothing was guaranteed, of course, but Tiller was well-aware of byu's ability to move the ball and score. A touchdown was possible, but a field goal was very likely. ... and overtime would favor byu. Ironically, a friend from Laramie was teaching at my school in that same little town, and we were watching the game on TV together. When the punter took the safety, we both shouted THAT SOB IS THROWING THE GAME! I haven't changed my mind. Was Tiller a traitor, or were Cowboy fans just stupid? I have no opinion, but maybe you do.
WyoGeezer
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My computer brain-farted, and I sent the same post twice. Sorry!
OrediggerPoke
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WyoGeezer wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:52 pm Because I left Wyoming for awhile to teach Third Grade in a little town in northern Nevada, I was gone for the entire Joe Tiller regime, and I didn't see many Cowboy games on TV. My sister, who was using my season tickets at The War, sent me a couple of videos and tried to tell me what was happening, but essentially, I was in the dark. My sister did tell me, however, that the fans were really hard on Tiller, and some of you guys have said the same thing. My recollection of THE SAFETY was that Tiller already had the job at Purdue, was sick of the incessant criticism from Cowboy fans, and didn't want to prepare for a bowl game. He wanted OUT of Laramie and wanted to begin his new opportunity. So ... He simply THREW THE GAME. As I recall, we were ahead by five points, with a fourth down inside our own ten yard line. Punting the ball would have required byu to score a touchdown to win. But a safety would put byu down by only three points. Tiller knew that scoring a field goal to tie was much easier than scoring a touchdown to win. Nothing was guaranteed, of course, but Tiller was well-aware of byu's ability to move the ball and score. A touchdown was possible, but a field goal was very likely. ... and overtime would favor byu. Ironically, a friend from Laramie was teaching at my school in that same little town, and we were watching the game on TV together. When the punter took the safety, we both shouted THAT SOB IS THROWING THE GAME! I haven't changed my mind. Was Tiller a traitor, or were Cowboy fans just stupid? I have no opinion, but maybe you do.
That’s a load of bs. Tiller was worried about punting out of his own end zone. It was a terrible call but he wasn’t throwing anything. Tiller was a good coach period.
Old-Bull
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bullbugle307 wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:16 pm Nebraska and AF both had/have much more diverse play calling when they run the ball that much. They didn't make it so easy for the defense to guess what was coming. They hand the ball to the FB. They toss it outside. They run the option etc. Vigen is the most predictable play caller I've ever seen. I've gotta think defensive coordinators love playing Wyoming. As long as they have the bodies to match up (and all the above average teams do), they don't have to guess much about what we're going to do
Agreed. We pass when it's obvious we're going to pass.
Old-Bull
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WyoGeezer wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:53 pm Because I left Wyoming for awhile to teach Third Grade in a little town in northern Nevada, I was gone for the entire Joe Tiller regime, and I didn't see many Cowboy games on TV. My sister, who was using my season tickets at The War, sent me a couple of videos and tried to tell me what was happening, but essentially, I was in the dark. My sister did tell me, however, that the fans were really hard on Tiller, and some of you guys have said the same thing. My recollection of THE SAFETY was that Tiller already had the job at Purdue, was sick of the incessant criticism from Cowboy fans, and didn't want to prepare for a bowl game. He wanted OUT of Laramie and wanted to begin his new opportunity. So ... He simply THREW THE GAME. As I recall, we were ahead by five points, with a fourth down inside our own ten yard line. Punting the ball would have required byu to score a touchdown to win. But a safety would put byu down by only three points. Tiller knew that scoring a field goal to tie was much easier than scoring a touchdown to win. Nothing was guaranteed, of course, but Tiller was well-aware of byu's ability to move the ball and score. A touchdown was possible, but a field goal was very likely. ... and overtime would favor byu. Ironically, a friend from Laramie was teaching at my school in that same little town, and we were watching the game on TV together. When the punter took the safety, we both shouted THAT SOB IS THROWING THE GAME! I haven't changed my mind. Was Tiller a traitor, or were Cowboy fans just stupid? I have no opinion, but maybe you do.
I thought it had more to do with the division in the fan base and the success of the previous coach. There were a lot of Cowboy fans that wanted to see Del Wight named as head coach. They never liked Tiller. His first season taking over from Roach he was 4-6-1 which was shocking after all the success we had under Roach. He followed that up with 5-7, 8-4(Copper Bowl blow-out), 6-6, 6-5, and then the infamous 10-2 season when he took the bad safety.

Wyoming wasn't used to playing .500 football after Paul Roach. It seemed like we were going backwards.

I never heard anyone say he was trying to get out of Wyoming. He loved it here. He spent more off time in Wyoming then he did in Indiana while he was the coach at Purdue and then he moved back.

Regardless, Bohl is the only coach to get us fighting for a MWC championship since Roach.

I still believe we would have been in the mix this year if Covid wouldn't have forced us to lose our entire defensive line and stole our momentum by killing the attendance we had last year while removing the best schedule we've had lined up in 25 years.

Covid f'd us. I'm willing to give us a pass this year, but I would still like to see our offense be a little less predictable.

It's not Levi or Sean's fault though. They're not calling the plays.
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Old-Bull wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:14 pm
WyoGeezer wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:53 pm Because I left Wyoming for awhile to teach Third Grade in a little town in northern Nevada, I was gone for the entire Joe Tiller regime, and I didn't see many Cowboy games on TV. My sister, who was using my season tickets at The War, sent me a couple of videos and tried to tell me what was happening, but essentially, I was in the dark. My sister did tell me, however, that the fans were really hard on Tiller, and some of you guys have said the same thing. My recollection of THE SAFETY was that Tiller already had the job at Purdue, was sick of the incessant criticism from Cowboy fans, and didn't want to prepare for a bowl game. He wanted OUT of Laramie and wanted to begin his new opportunity. So ... He simply THREW THE GAME. As I recall, we were ahead by five points, with a fourth down inside our own ten yard line. Punting the ball would have required byu to score a touchdown to win. But a safety would put byu down by only three points. Tiller knew that scoring a field goal to tie was much easier than scoring a touchdown to win. Nothing was guaranteed, of course, but Tiller was well-aware of byu's ability to move the ball and score. A touchdown was possible, but a field goal was very likely. ... and overtime would favor byu. Ironically, a friend from Laramie was teaching at my school in that same little town, and we were watching the game on TV together. When the punter took the safety, we both shouted THAT SOB IS THROWING THE GAME! I haven't changed my mind. Was Tiller a traitor, or were Cowboy fans just stupid? I have no opinion, but maybe you do.
I thought it had more to do with the division in the fan base and the success of the previous coach. There were a lot of Cowboy fans that wanted to see Del Wight named as head coach. They never liked Tiller. His first season taking over from Roach he was 4-6-1 which was shocking after all the success we had under Roach. He followed that up with 5-7, 8-4(Copper Bowl blow-out), 6-6, 6-5, and then the infamous 10-2 season when he took the bad safety.


Regardless, Bohl is the only coach to get us fighting for a MWC championship since Roach.

This post makes no sense. Bohl is the only coach to have Wyoming anywhere close to a MWC championship. But if you are talking about the WAC too, the safety under Tiller was in the WAC Championship game.
Old-Bull
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OrediggerPoke wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:21 pm
Old-Bull wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:14 pm
WyoGeezer wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:53 pm Because I left Wyoming for awhile to teach Third Grade in a little town in northern Nevada, I was gone for the entire Joe Tiller regime, and I didn't see many Cowboy games on TV. My sister, who was using my season tickets at The War, sent me a couple of videos and tried to tell me what was happening, but essentially, I was in the dark. My sister did tell me, however, that the fans were really hard on Tiller, and some of you guys have said the same thing. My recollection of THE SAFETY was that Tiller already had the job at Purdue, was sick of the incessant criticism from Cowboy fans, and didn't want to prepare for a bowl game. He wanted OUT of Laramie and wanted to begin his new opportunity. So ... He simply THREW THE GAME. As I recall, we were ahead by five points, with a fourth down inside our own ten yard line. Punting the ball would have required byu to score a touchdown to win. But a safety would put byu down by only three points. Tiller knew that scoring a field goal to tie was much easier than scoring a touchdown to win. Nothing was guaranteed, of course, but Tiller was well-aware of byu's ability to move the ball and score. A touchdown was possible, but a field goal was very likely. ... and overtime would favor byu. Ironically, a friend from Laramie was teaching at my school in that same little town, and we were watching the game on TV together. When the punter took the safety, we both shouted THAT SOB IS THROWING THE GAME! I haven't changed my mind. Was Tiller a traitor, or were Cowboy fans just stupid? I have no opinion, but maybe you do.
I thought it had more to do with the division in the fan base and the success of the previous coach. There were a lot of Cowboy fans that wanted to see Del Wight named as head coach. They never liked Tiller. His first season taking over from Roach he was 4-6-1 which was shocking after all the success we had under Roach. He followed that up with 5-7, 8-4(Copper Bowl blow-out), 6-6, 6-5, and then the infamous 10-2 season when he took the bad safety.


Regardless, Bohl is the only coach to get us fighting for a MWC championship since Roach.

This post makes no sense. Bohl is the only coach to have Wyoming anywhere close to a MWC championship. But if you are talking about the WAC too, the safety under Tiller was in the WAC Championship game.
Good catch. I was thinking Tiller in my head and typing Roach with my fingers. I said that earlier in the thread. He's the only coach to have us playing for the championship on the last game of the season since Tiller.

I remember the Wac championship. I was there.
ragtimejoe1
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NDSU has another QB near the top of the draft. That makes 2. Coach or ?

Allen has made strides without Vigen coaching him and very little progress with Vigen. At very minimum, a QB coach could help substantially. I don't believe Vigen knows how to develop QBs. I also don't think Vigen is creative enough to make the offense work with an adequate college QB. Thus, I agree that the offense is limited without a top flight, NFL-level QB.

I also believe that accuracy can only be achieved to the level that mechanics can correct. Allen made strides because his mechanics improved with coaching that knew what proper mechanics were. Accuracy beyond mechanics can't be taught.
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Old-Bull
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:39 pm NDSU has another QB near the top of the draft. That makes 2. Coach or ?

Allen has made strides without Vigen coaching him and very little progress with Vigen. At very minimum, a QB coach could help substantially. I don't believe Vigen knows how to develop QBs. I also don't think Vigen is creative enough to make the offense work with an adequate college QB. Thus, I agree that the offense is limited without a top flight, NFL-level QB.

I also believe that accuracy can only be achieved to the level that mechanics can correct. Allen made strides because his mechanics improved with coaching that knew what proper mechanics were. Accuracy beyond mechanics can't be taught.

You have to give Vigen and Bohl credit for identifying guys with the skills to succeed and then making them at the very least, physically ready to play in the NFL. They did it twice. It's not an accident. They're sending guys to the league that have stuck in the league and became good passing quarterbacks in the NFL after playing in a run heavy offense. Osbornes teams didn't do that.

This years offense is scoring plenty of points. So did the team we had with Allen. The problem with those teams was defense.

It would be nice if it were prettier, but if you're scoring 30 points a game, you should be beating CSU and Nevada. That's a defensive issue and that is because almost our entire defensive line is at home watching their teammates play football on t.v.
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Old-Bull wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:24 pm
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:39 pm NDSU has another QB near the top of the draft. That makes 2. Coach or ?

Allen has made strides without Vigen coaching him and very little progress with Vigen. At very minimum, a QB coach could help substantially. I don't believe Vigen knows how to develop QBs. I also don't think Vigen is creative enough to make the offense work with an adequate college QB. Thus, I agree that the offense is limited without a top flight, NFL-level QB.

I also believe that accuracy can only be achieved to the level that mechanics can correct. Allen made strides because his mechanics improved with coaching that knew what proper mechanics were. Accuracy beyond mechanics can't be taught.

You have to give Vigen and Bohl credit for identifying guys with the skills to succeed and then making them at the very least, physically ready to play in the NFL. They did it twice. It's not an accident. They're sending guys to the league that have stuck in the league and became good passing quarterbacks in the NFL after playing in a run heavy offense. Osbornes teams didn't do that.

This years offense is scoring plenty of points. So did the team we had with Allen. The problem with those teams was defense.

It would be nice if it were prettier, but if you're scoring 30 points a game, you should be beating CSU and Nevada. That's a defensive issue and that is because almost our entire defensive line is at home watching their teammates play football on t.v.
Is it though? The offense spotted the lambs 14 points to start the game and continued to do nothing to get back in the game until it was too late. The offense did jack against Nevada for 3.5 quarters, and the D held long enough to allow the offense to crawl back once dingbat opened up the playbook.

We have had great defenses the last three years which would have been even better with better offensive production. We knew we were going to have a drop off on the defensive side of the ball, even before the opt outs. The answer was experience at QB, a deep and talented O line, great RBs, and theoretically high grading at the receiver spot. In reality it's the same ole song and dance, and the D doesn't have the guys to carry the team anymore.
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ragtimejoe1
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Ok, that was a bit too much, so edited. Vigen has fielded solid running teams that can handle mediocre MWC teams and keep most games close if defense plays lights out and special teams are error free.

The inability to field an even adequate passing game is the biggest limitation to Bohl's teams, imo.
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Old-Bull wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:04 pm
bullbugle307 wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:16 pm Nebraska and AF both had/have much more diverse play calling when they run the ball that much. They didn't make it so easy for the defense to guess what was coming. They hand the ball to the FB. They toss it outside. They run the option etc. Vigen is the most predictable play caller I've ever seen. I've gotta think defensive coordinators love playing Wyoming. As long as they have the bodies to match up (and all the above average teams do), they don't have to guess much about what we're going to do
Agreed. We pass when it's obvious we're going to pass.
Just did a quick check based on play by play logs. given 63 meaningful 1st down plays in the first halves of the first four games, Wyoming passed the ball on 26% of first downs. So around 1 in four first down plays have been pass plays. I chose to only look at 1st half plays because I think they represent the intent of the offensive game plan more than second halves. For example..if your are behind....the passing number will rise....and if you are ahead....the running will increase.
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PokeNer wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:28 pm
Old-Bull wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:24 pm
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:39 pm NDSU has another QB near the top of the draft. That makes 2. Coach or ?

Allen has made strides without Vigen coaching him and very little progress with Vigen. At very minimum, a QB coach could help substantially. I don't believe Vigen knows how to develop QBs. I also don't think Vigen is creative enough to make the offense work with an adequate college QB. Thus, I agree that the offense is limited without a top flight, NFL-level QB.

I also believe that accuracy can only be achieved to the level that mechanics can correct. Allen made strides because his mechanics improved with coaching that knew what proper mechanics were. Accuracy beyond mechanics can't be taught.

You have to give Vigen and Bohl credit for identifying guys with the skills to succeed and then making them at the very least, physically ready to play in the NFL. They did it twice. It's not an accident. They're sending guys to the league that have stuck in the league and became good passing quarterbacks in the NFL after playing in a run heavy offense. Osbornes teams didn't do that.

This years offense is scoring plenty of points. So did the team we had with Allen. The problem with those teams was defense.

It would be nice if it were prettier, but if you're scoring 30 points a game, you should be beating CSU and Nevada. That's a defensive issue and that is because almost our entire defensive line is at home watching their teammates play football on t.v.
Is it though? The offense spotted the lambs 14 points to start the game and continued to do nothing to get back in the game until it was too late. The offense did jack against Nevada for 3.5 quarters, and the D held long enough to allow the offense to crawl back once dingbat opened up the playbook.

We have had great defenses the last three years which would have been even better with better offensive production. We knew we were going to have a drop off on the defensive side of the ball, even before the opt outs. The answer was experience at QB, a deep and talented O line, great RBs, and theoretically high grading at the receiver spot. In reality it's the same ole song and dance, and the D doesn't have the guys to carry the team anymore.
It would be pretty frustrating to be a defensive player over the past few years and catch blame for giving up scores and chunk plays while the offense consistently hands the ball back to the other offense for 3 quarters or more before trying something new. The EXACT same arguments were made last season when we lost close games in the EXACT same way. The Nevada loss was near identical to like 3 of the losses last season, when people (including Bohl) said "well we didn't get a stop when we needed to" meanwhile the offense completes single digit passes and can't convert a 3rd and long to save its life. Same ole song and dance, as you say.
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Poke in New England wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:15 am
PokeNer wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:28 pm
Old-Bull wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:24 pm
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:39 pm NDSU has another QB near the top of the draft. That makes 2. Coach or ?

Allen has made strides without Vigen coaching him and very little progress with Vigen. At very minimum, a QB coach could help substantially. I don't believe Vigen knows how to develop QBs. I also don't think Vigen is creative enough to make the offense work with an adequate college QB. Thus, I agree that the offense is limited without a top flight, NFL-level QB.

I also believe that accuracy can only be achieved to the level that mechanics can correct. Allen made strides because his mechanics improved with coaching that knew what proper mechanics were. Accuracy beyond mechanics can't be taught.

You have to give Vigen and Bohl credit for identifying guys with the skills to succeed and then making them at the very least, physically ready to play in the NFL. They did it twice. It's not an accident. They're sending guys to the league that have stuck in the league and became good passing quarterbacks in the NFL after playing in a run heavy offense. Osbornes teams didn't do that.

This years offense is scoring plenty of points. So did the team we had with Allen. The problem with those teams was defense.

It would be nice if it were prettier, but if you're scoring 30 points a game, you should be beating CSU and Nevada. That's a defensive issue and that is because almost our entire defensive line is at home watching their teammates play football on t.v.
Is it though? The offense spotted the lambs 14 points to start the game and continued to do nothing to get back in the game until it was too late. The offense did jack against Nevada for 3.5 quarters, and the D held long enough to allow the offense to crawl back once dingbat opened up the playbook.

We have had great defenses the last three years which would have been even better with better offensive production. We knew we were going to have a drop off on the defensive side of the ball, even before the opt outs. The answer was experience at QB, a deep and talented O line, great RBs, and theoretically high grading at the receiver spot. In reality it's the same ole song and dance, and the D doesn't have the guys to carry the team anymore.
It would be pretty frustrating to be a defensive player over the past few years and catch blame for giving up scores and chunk plays while the offense consistently hands the ball back to the other offense for 3 quarters or more before trying something new. The EXACT same arguments were made last season when we lost close games in the EXACT same way. The Nevada loss was near identical to like 3 of the losses last season, when people (including Bohl) said "well we didn't get a stop when we needed to" meanwhile the offense completes single digit passes and can't convert a 3rd and long to save its life. Same ole song and dance, as you say.
I know it happened in the SDSU game...and at least one more...where we had the lead late in the fourth and the opponent had to go the length of the field to win the game and they did. Everybody would feel pretty good with a 4 to 6 point lead and time running out with last years defense on the field with 70+ yards to the end zone....and yet two games got away from us last year where that exact situation unfolded. Is there a reason why would would expect your defense to fail in that situation? Tulsa, SDSU, and BSU were all games that could have been won with late stops...this is obvious...I agree that they could have been won by being up by even more points going in to the fourth quarter but that is true for every game. Nobody is "blaming" the defense....we all agree that the offense sux...AND with some late stops last year we could have had three more wins....it just sounds stupid to deny that!!!!

To summarize...these things are true:

1. Wyoming's defense is not bad.
2. Wyoming's offense is bad.
3. If Wyoming's offense scores more points we win more.
4. If Wyoming's defense, which is the strength of the team, comes up with late stops, at least three key games from last year move into the win column.

Is it ok to say these things? Which are people more surprised by...the fact that Wyoming's anemic offense does not produce...or that it's vaunted defense allowed key late scores?
ragtimejoe1
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Something that rarely comes up is would Carson Wentz get to his spot if Vigen coached him all 4 years. Probably, but the concept that he might have had a harder road is conceivable. Granted, there is development as players transition from Freshman to Senior years.

After Vigen left, ndsu offense had more plays, more rushing yards, more passing yards, drastically more passing TDs, etc. I know, I know, Carson took over and made everything better. Problem is, the increased productivity sustained after Carson left.
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Levi has a rough game passing (decent game rushing) - and all of a sudden he is another Dax Crum as far as this board sees things. Ridiculous.
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ragtimejoe1
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McPeachy wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:55 am Levi has a rough game passing (decent game rushing) - and all of a sudden he is another Dax Crum as far as this board sees things. Ridiculous.
I actually think he can be a serviceable QB in the offense but has some mechanical issues that contribute to accuracy issues. If he can shore up his mechanics, his consistency should improve.

I do not have faith that Vigen is good at developing or improving mechanics at the QB position.

I'm not sure that Levi is the guy that carries a whole team and makes them all look better. Maybe, but he has a long way to go in that regard. In my opinion his success rests with developmental coaching, play calling (keeping him in a spot to succeed), and will need better than average talent around him.
"There's always excuses for a sports program not winning or academic program not succeeding. And it's not that the excuses aren't true; it's that they aren't sufficient," --Sternberg
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