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307bball
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OrediggerPoke wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:24 am
Well stated.

Those calling for Bohl's firing at this point or for Bohl to somehow shift his offensive philosophy are not being realistic. Bohl ball is what you see and is what we will get. There is no such thing as a Bohl head coach and a different offensive philosophy. Overall, it is hard to get an accurate gauge on the state of the program based on this season that is a fact (who knows where we are without the defensive opt outs and the unfortunate Chambers injury and the crazy schedule that was in constant flux). Next year we should have an opporunity to evaluate the program and see where we are at.

I've said this over and over but there is a huge difference between the program under Bohl and the program under Christensen from a competitive standpoint. I've never seen the players pack in a game under Bohl. They continue to compete and that has been shown in all of the games this year as well. under Christensen (and Glenn at points), there were definitely games where the players just packed it in and went through the motions.

Finally - if Trey Smith doesn't fumble against New Mexico are we really having all of these same discussions? Not pointing the blame on Smith but it goes to show the impact of one perhaps unlucky play. As the old saying goes, you are never as good as you think you are after a win or never as bad as you think you are after a loss.
The bolded statement above is so true....it is really hard to make sweeping assertions based on this year. I think you are probably right also in questioning if Trey does not fumble...how much of this conversation is happening. I still say we played down to a terrible opponent but no way is the conversation this depressed.
ragtimejoe1
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OrediggerPoke wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:24 am

Those calling for Bohl's firing at this point or for Bohl to somehow shift his offensive philosophy are not being realistic. Bohl ball is what you see and is what we will get. There is no such thing as a Bohl head coach and a different offensive philosophy. Overall, it is hard to get an accurate gauge on the state of the program based on this season that is a fact (who knows where we are without the defensive opt outs and the unfortunate Chambers injury and the crazy schedule that was in constant flux). Next year we should have an opporunity to evaluate the program and see where we are at.
For the record, I think most are calling for an evaluation of offensive output regardless of plays or system. Very similar to the lack of defensive production by Stanard which shifted dramatically and stabilized since his departure.

Essentially a nonfunctional offense 6 of 7 years is fair to question regardless of excuse.
"There's always excuses for a sports program not winning or academic program not succeeding. And it's not that the excuses aren't true; it's that they aren't sufficient," --Sternberg
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Asmodeanreborn
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Yep, once again this is turning into a strawman. Many of us questioning our offensive output is not asking to move to the spread or otherwise. We want some accountability for an offense that's been consistently outside of the top 100. There is no way anybody can convince me we can't be at least top 75 statistically in terms of offense, something which combined with our defensive prowess would lead to a significant improvement in the W-L column.
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Asmodeanreborn wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:16 pm Yep, once again this is turning into a strawman. Many of us questioning our offensive output is not asking to move to the spread or otherwise. We want some accountability for an offense that's been consistently outside of the top 100. There is no way anybody can convince me we can't be at least top 75 statistically in terms of offense, something which combined with our defensive prowess would lead to a significant improvement in the W-L column.
Exactly, find me a Vigen critic that says we want to go back to the spread. The fact is, the current offense has to have a passing element. If sub-100 ratings in every passing category is acceptable, then just abandoned this playbook, quit recruiting pro-style QBs and switch to the option.
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LawPoke
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Asmodeanreborn wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:16 pm Yep, once again this is turning into a strawman. Many of us questioning our offensive output is not asking to move to the spread or otherwise. We want some accountability for an offense that's been consistently outside of the top 100. There is no way anybody can convince me we can't be at least top 75 statistically in terms of offense, something which combined with our defensive prowess would lead to a significant improvement in the W-L column.
Wasn't there some discussion from Bohl this past offseason that the offense needed to be more productive, he knew the did and would hold folks accountable to gain in that productivity?
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LawPoke wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:12 pm
Asmodeanreborn wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:16 pm Yep, once again this is turning into a strawman. Many of us questioning our offensive output is not asking to move to the spread or otherwise. We want some accountability for an offense that's been consistently outside of the top 100. There is no way anybody can convince me we can't be at least top 75 statistically in terms of offense, something which combined with our defensive prowess would lead to a significant improvement in the W-L column.
Wasn't there some discussion from Bohl this past offseason that the offense needed to be more productive, he knew the did and would hold folks accountable to gain in that productivity?
The only article I could find and the one I remember is this: https://bit.ly/2K9qArm

He doesn't say anything about accountability, but does say he expects more out of the offense.

Also, interestingly, I found this article which says they are comfortable with either QB, yet this week they put the excuse for poor offensive production on not being prepared for Chambers to go down and it has essentially set the offense back. https://bit.ly/3gtWDyj
307bball
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Asmodeanreborn wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:16 pm Yep, once again this is turning into a strawman. Many of us questioning our offensive output is not asking to move to the spread or otherwise. We want some accountability for an offense that's been consistently outside of the top 100. There is no way anybody can convince me we can't be at least top 75 statistically in terms of offense, something which combined with our defensive prowess would lead to a significant improvement in the W-L column.
What part of the discussion is a strawman? Are you hearing a big uptick in voices promoting a spread offense?...I am not hearing that. I think we are all genuinely grappling with the following dilemma:

1. Should we support the most successful coach at Wyoming this century...despite some seeming obvious shortcomings that he either cannot or will not fix.

2. Thank Bohl for the stability he has brought to the program and point to the obvious shortcomings and politely show him the door.

A lot of you all are trying for a 3rd option that I'm arguing does not exist...That Bohl transforms into something he has never been and will never be....that he will show some flexibility and actually either hire a new OC or go back to the drawing board w/Vigen and craft a more dymanic offensive style. I would bet a lot that this will not happen. Bohl's stubbornness and conviction that he is right is probably a positive in most every aspect except this one. This is year 7....he's not a young guy...He has probably got a list, 100 points long, full of mistakes that his O-line made...and he is convinced that if he can correct those mistakes, the offense will come together. Now, he may be wrong...but that is the guy I think he is.
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307bball wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:54 pm
What part of the discussion is a strawman? Are you hearing a big uptick in voices promoting a spread offense?...I am not hearing that. I think we are all genuinely grappling with the following dilemma:

1. Should we support the most successful coach at Wyoming this century...despite some seeming obvious shortcomings that he either cannot or will not fix.

2. Thank Bohl for the stability he has brought to the program and point to the obvious shortcomings and politely show him the door.

A lot of you all are trying for a 3rd option that I'm arguing does not exist...That Bohl transforms into something he has never been and will never be....that he will show some flexibility and actually either hire a new OC or go back to the drawing board w/Vigen and craft a more dymanic offensive style. I would bet a lot that this will not happen. Bohl's stubbornness and conviction that he is right is probably a positive in most every aspect except this one. This is year 7....he's not a young guy...He has probably got a list, 100 points long, full of mistakes that his O-line made...and he is convinced that if he can correct those mistakes, the offense will come together. Now, he may be wrong...but that is the guy I think he is.
Exactly right and well stated!

I'm not a fan of the offensive production. No one could be. But the fire vigen crowd is really just asking whether you fire Bohl or not. Bohl isn't changing as you state. Next year will be important to take a look where we are at as a program in terms of competitiveness and wins and losses. Vigen and the same Bohl offense that we've seen for 7 years aren't going anywhere. If the team struggles next year when we have a relatively experienced team, then it will become more clear that maybe the program needs a change at the top. But at this point and given everything, Bohl has been the most successful coach we have had in decades and a change makes no sense.
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PokeNer
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307bball wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:54 pm
Asmodeanreborn wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:16 pm Yep, once again this is turning into a strawman. Many of us questioning our offensive output is not asking to move to the spread or otherwise. We want some accountability for an offense that's been consistently outside of the top 100. There is no way anybody can convince me we can't be at least top 75 statistically in terms of offense, something which combined with our defensive prowess would lead to a significant improvement in the W-L column.
What part of the discussion is a strawman? Are you hearing a big uptick in voices promoting a spread offense?...I am not hearing that. I think we are all genuinely grappling with the following dilemma:

1. Should we support the most successful coach at Wyoming this century...despite some seeming obvious shortcomings that he either cannot or will not fix.

2. Thank Bohl for the stability he has brought to the program and point to the obvious shortcomings and politely show him the door.

A lot of you all are trying for a 3rd option that I'm arguing does not exist...That Bohl transforms into something he has never been and will never be....that he will show some flexibility and actually either hire a new OC or go back to the drawing board w/Vigen and craft a more dymanic offensive style. I would bet a lot that this will not happen. Bohl's stubbornness and conviction that he is right is probably a positive in most every aspect except this one. This is year 7....he's not a young guy...He has probably got a list, 100 points long, full of mistakes that his O-line made...and he is convinced that if he can correct those mistakes, the offense will come together. Now, he may be wrong...but that is the guy I think he is.
I think the "strawman" issue is those who are rebutting the Vigen push to change are saying we want to go back to spread or all-out passing attack.
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There are people claiming Bohl won’t fire vigen because that’s the offensive system he wants. So why is there a double standard between offense and defense. He fired a DC for poor on field results, I don’t think he did that to fire the “system”. He can do the same on offense by firing the OC but not the system. Keep the system just get someone who knows how to run it.
307bball
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SheepSlayer wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:58 pm So why is there a double standard between offense and defense?
To be honest... Who knows? Here's a better question... Does it matter what the reason is? The apparent double standard seems to exist... Could there possibly be a reason for it that would cause us all to say "oh... Now I get it"?

The situation feels frustratingly close to having a top notch program based on the good qualities that Bohl has brought... Yet it also feels very far away since, with each year that goes by, the same offensive woes continue to plague us with no solution in sight.
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Nothing in this whole thread even matters unless Wyoming gets a coach that can coach the QB’s to get better. Bohl and Vigen both make the QB’s worse at throwing the ball.

So either hire a QB coach or a new offensive coordinator that can actually teach how to get better throwing a football or Bohl will be getting his walking papers after next year no matter what.

Doesn’t matter what offense you run or which coach on this staff coaches what position. Nothing matters until they have someone that knows how to coach QB’s. Like I said before, every QB here gets worse at throwing the ball because of the coaching. Levi is far worse now than he was in the first game. It happens every year.

Chambers looked decent throwing it his freshman year when he came in. Then last year before he got hurt he looked like Sh#t throwing the ball also. And on and on and on. Name me a QB that this staff has had here and they got worse, including Josh Allen.

So until that is fixed nothing else matters.
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ragtimejoe1
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Endorsement of Vigen is saying this is the best offense WYO can produce under any circumstance. This offense is not limiting success.

Pretty simple. You agree with that or you don't.
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SheepSlayer wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:58 pm There are people claiming Bohl won’t fire vigen because that’s the offensive system he wants. So why is there a double standard between offense and defense. He fired a DC for poor on field results, I don’t think he did that to fire the “system”. He can do the same on offense by firing the OC but not the system. Keep the system just get someone who knows how to run it.
Yes. This . Well said!
307bball
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LanderPoke wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:30 pm
SheepSlayer wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:58 pm There are people claiming Bohl won’t fire vigen because that’s the offensive system he wants. So why is there a double standard between offense and defense. He fired a DC for poor on field results, I don’t think he did that to fire the “system”. He can do the same on offense by firing the OC but not the system. Keep the system just get someone who knows how to run it.
Yes. This . Well said!
I mean .... What Sheepslayer is saying makes sense to me. But at this point it is academic. By now I'm convinced that there are only two explanations that make sense.

1. Bohl is unwilling to makes changes on offense.

2. Bohl is unable to make changes in offense.

That's it!... Those are the only two explanations for how we got here on this topic! If CB was willing AND able... The offense would be different.
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SheepSlayer wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:58 pm There are people claiming Bohl won’t fire vigen because that’s the offensive system he wants. So why is there a double standard between offense and defense. He fired a DC for poor on field results, I don’t think he did that to fire the “system”. He can do the same on offense by firing the OC but not the system. Keep the system just get someone who knows how to run it.
Speaking of Hazelton, Michigan State is giving up 34.5 points and 383.5 yards per game in Hazelton's first season there (including a surprising 49 pts to Iowa). In his only season at Kansas State in 2019, the defense was relatively successful giving up only 21.5 points and 356 yards per game.

Don't know the story with Michigan State's defense but looks like Hazelton has his hands full there. Hazelton went to Michigan State after its hiring of Mel Tucker.
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seattlecowboy wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:16 pm Nothing in this whole thread even matters unless Wyoming gets a coach that can coach the QB’s to get better. Bohl and Vigen both make the QB’s worse at throwing the ball.

So either hire a QB coach or a new offensive coordinator that can actually teach how to get better throwing a football or Bohl will be getting his walking papers after next year no matter what.

Doesn’t matter what offense you run or which coach on this staff coaches what position. Nothing matters until they have someone that knows how to coach QB’s. Like I said before, every QB here gets worse at throwing the ball because of the coaching. Levi is far worse now than he was in the first game. It happens every year.

Chambers looked decent throwing it his freshman year when he came in. Then last year before he got hurt he looked like Sh#t throwing the ball also. And on and on and on. Name me a QB that this staff has had here and they got worse, including Josh Allen.

So until that is fixed nothing else matters.
IMO, hiring just an QB coach isn't going to make much difference. For one, we definitely need someone to replace Grant and get a WR coach that coaches routes and catching first not blocking. Vigen's playbook is terrible. The pass plays are some of the least creative and ineffective I've ever seen. I believe if there was someone coordinating the O withl at least a little bit of creativity, the completion percentage, passer rating, etc would increase drastically. I've heard many rumors that Vigens playbook is very complicated, especially when it comes to blocking schemes. This limits the effectiveness and depth of your offensive roster since it takes 2 years to fully understand the playbook. Hence, why you rarely see freshman playing. They need someone to simplify. If you simplify and some of the talented freshman can grasp the playbook in Fall camp, then you have added in several players to your offensive depth.

TLDR, position coaching changes isn't enough. We need wholesale staff changes on O, or it's not going to make a difference.
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ragtimejoe1
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What I find interesting is that Bohl wins a couple more games per year than Glenn against VASTLY inferior competition and he's the greatest coach in WYO history. Those few more wins per year are that important. However, the few more wins per year that would require some offensive output have no importance (i.e to get to double digit wins).
"There's always excuses for a sports program not winning or academic program not succeeding. And it's not that the excuses aren't true; it's that they aren't sufficient," --Sternberg
307bball
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:07 am What I find interesting is that Bohl wins a couple more games per year than Glenn against VASTLY inferior competition and he's the greatest coach in WYO history. Those few more wins per year are that important. However, the few more wins per year that would require some offensive output have no importance (i.e to get to double digit wins).
Just clarifying...are you espousing this opinion? If you feel that way ... this is first time I've heard from anybody on this board.
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307bball wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:18 am 1. Bohl is unwilling to makes changes on offense.
2. Bohl is unable to make changes in offense.
As a corollary to (1) : Bohl thinks the offense is great.

As a corollary to (2): Vigen has something on Bohl.
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