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307bball
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:52 pm
OrediggerPoke wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:40 pm
307bball wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 2:40 pm ....Oredigger sees CB as the reason our offense has been soooo bad.
It is a management view. Bohl is the sole decision maker. He most likely could have fired Vigen at any time if he believed that Vigen was holding the offense back. He did not do that. Nor should he have been compelled to do that...because ultimately it is his decision and, if he fails to deliver, he is gone.
Do you believe the offense will improve because Vigen is gone? Do you think Vigen was limiting the offensive production? Let's try that. Those questions are about Vigen's role/contributions SPECIFICALLY regardless of what CB did/said/ didn't do, etc.
I'll attempt to wade into the shades of grey....IMO Vigen did limit the offense. There is absolutely no way to know this for sure....If Wyoming has a great offensive outburst next year, It's just as likely that Bohl's arrangement with his new OC is what led to the increase in production....In this instance...we are back to Bohl being the limiting factor. Ultimately Bohl did what any good leader should do...he stayed loyal..he did not throw anybody under the bus and he gave the people he leads as much opportunity as he possibly was able to. Now, an argument can be made that, in the cutthroat business of college football, some of these virtues come at a price of competitiveness. I would have liked to have seen Bohl send Vigen down the road a year ago (or earlier)...just because that would have sent the message that the output of the offense up to that point was unacceptable. By all accounts they were good friends and I guess I'm glad that Bohl did not have to endanger a personal relationship ... but that does not excuse the product that we all saw on the field. If we have a great year next year....I'll love it ... but right now I believe that Bohl hung on too long to Vigen. That was Bohls fault .... not Vigen's.

@Ragtime...your just never going to be able to manufacture Vigen fans when where is none here..(that I know of)
ragtimejoe1
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307 is on record as seeing Vigen as the likely problem and Bohl hanging onto him too long so it's Bohl's fault. I think almost no one misses the point that ultimate responsibility rests with the head coach. What'd they say in the 90s? DUH!

That doesn't mean CB made Vigen suck at implementing an offense. You and I agree on Vigen. Oredigger accused me of putting words in his mouth when he literally said Vigen wasn't holding the offense back. Unless he says otherwise and besides the obvious hc bearing responsibility for the whole team, I'll take him at his word. He doesn't think Vigen was holding the offense back
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
307bball
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:06 pm 307 is on record as seeing Vigen as the likely problem and Bohl hanging onto him too long so it's Bohl's fault. I think almost no one misses the point that ultimate responsibility rests with the head coach. What'd they say in the 90s? DUH!

That doesn't mean CB made Vigen suck at implementing an offense. You and I agree on Vigen. Oredigger accused me of putting words in his mouth when he literally said Vigen wasn't holding the offense back. Unless he says otherwise and besides the obvious hc bearing responsibility for the whole team, I'll take him at his word. He doesn't think Vigen was holding the offense back
As noted earlier... Despite the time of some of these discussions... We agree on quite a bit.

My reading of Oredigger's response is that he did not think Vigen was the biggest factor.... That is not the same as saying Vigen did not hold the offense back.

Remember when it was announced that Vigen was not going to be the cowboys OC next year? That sound you heard was the collective sigh of relief of poke fans everywhere....I don't remember a single person wishing that he was staying. You referenced Vigen fanboys and got called out for, at best, an inarticulate flourish, and, at worst, an attempt to misrepresent people trying to have a complex discussion. Sheesh... Let's get back to predictions and away from arguing about who hated Vigen the most and first.
ragtimejoe1
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Horse manure. It isn't that complicated. This discussion centers on 1 thing. Will replacing Vigen improve the offense. Most everyone says yes so far. Maybe we're right or maybe it is the system, players, CB himself, or? that is holding the offense back. Call your shot.

Several paragraphs describing how the HC bears the responsibility is about as profound as the sunrise and sunset reports.

If you think the system, players, or other was holding the offense back and not the OC, then I describe you as a Vigen fanboy. Sorry you don't like the term.

Back to topic which is based in the reality that the OC is changing, we have 1 that says the OC was not holding the offense back. Will be interesting to see. Hell, Oredigger might be the only 1 right.
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
307bball
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:41 pm

If you think the system, players, or other was holding the offense back and not the OC, then I describe you as a Vigen fanboy. Sorry you don't like the term.
Ragtime...if I'm mischaracterizing you, please correct me. It seems like you are drawing a circle around a lot of people who are very glad to see Vigen go....and calling them Vigen fanboys. Is that accurate? By this metric...would you consider yourself a BYU "fanboy".

To be clear...I believe the offense was indeed held back by the things you mentioned:

1. System (too conservative)
2. Players (WR group is a trainwreck)
3. Other (injuries, opt-outs)

By your logic...that alone makes me a Vigen fanboy??? Really? *edit, the italicized comment was based on an incorrect reading of Ragtime's comment. However, I will say that I don't know that Vigen actually held the offense back or merely did not react well to challenges. Either way...glad he's gone.

Find me the people that are sad Vigen is gone and I'll at least admit that the Vigen "fanboy" exists...

I disagree with you on a lot of points, but ultimately they are points upon which reasonable people can disagree. The need to categorize people with no love lost for Vigen as "fanboys" is just bizarre.
ragtimejoe1
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307bball wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:20 pm
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:41 pm

If you think the system, players, or other was holding the offense back and not the OC, then I describe you as a Vigen fanboy. Sorry you don't like the term.
Ragtime...if I'm mischaracterizing you, please correct me. It seems like you are drawing a circle around a lot of people who are very glad to see Vigen go....and calling them Vigen fanboys. Is that accurate? By this metric...would you consider yourself a BYU "fanboy".

To be clear...I believe the offense was indeed held back by the things you mentioned:

1. System (too conservative)
2. Players (WR group is a trainwreck)
3. Other (injuries, opt-outs)

By your logic...that alone makes me a Vigen fanboy??? Really? *edit, the italicized comment was based on an incorrect reading of Ragtime's comment. However, I will say that I don't know that Vigen actually held the offense back or merely did not react well to challenges. Either way...glad he's gone.

Find me the people that are sad Vigen is gone and I'll at least admit that the Vigen "fanboy" exists...

I disagree with you on a lot of points, but ultimately they are points upon which reasonable people can disagree. The need to categorize people with no love lost for Vigen as "fanboys" is just bizarre.
You are waaay overthinking this. Everyone and I mean everyone understands that lots of factors can play roles in success/failure and that the buck stops at the HC. Again, that is about as profound as the sunrise/sunset prediction.

It is pretty simple, the system will be the same, CB will still be here, the players will largely be the same; only Vigen will be gone. Some of us, it appears you are included in this, think that simply replacing Vigen will result in improvements similar to the Stanard situation. = NOT VIGEN FANBOY

Others over the years others have described the basic premise that Vigen might not be perfect but is doing about as well as anyone can in that role because: you can't make the players make plays; he is just CB's pawn and doing exactly what CB wants; it's a ball control offense and you are just too dumb to understand; it's all about run up the middle in an effort to wear the other team down; etc. etc. Each of these aren't necessarily false and evaluated individually or in a vacuum, can be used as examples as why the offense failed. However, this assumes that Vigen was doing ok and that about anyone would have results similar to Vigen = Vigen fanboys.

Since much of the offense will remain the same, this thread is about calling your shot on how replacing Vigen will impact the offense. Many of us are going to look pretty stupid if the offense sputters over the next few years; only Oredigger will have called it correctly since he said that he didn't think Vigen was the biggest factor holding the offense back.

I can define fanboy however I want. It wasn't even a topic of this thread until you brought it up. This thread was solely about predicting the impacts of replacing Vigen.
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
307bball
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:13 am You are waaay overthinking this. Everyone and I mean everyone understands that lots of factors can play roles in success/failure and that the buck stops at the HC. Again, that is about as profound as the sunrise/sunset prediction.

It is pretty simple, the system will be the same, CB will still be here, the players will largely be the same; only Vigen will be gone. Some of us, it appears you are included in this, think that simply replacing Vigen will result in improvements similar to the Stanard situation. = NOT VIGEN FANBOY

Others over the years others have described the basic premise that Vigen might not be perfect but is doing about as well as anyone can in that role because: you can't make the players make plays; he is just CB's pawn and doing exactly what CB wants; it's a ball control offense and you are just too dumb to understand; it's all about run up the middle in an effort to wear the other team down; etc. etc. Each of these aren't necessarily false and evaluated individually or in a vacuum, can be used as examples as why the offense failed. However, this assumes that Vigen was doing ok and that about anyone would have results similar to Vigen = Vigen fanboys.

Since much of the offense will remain the same, this thread is about calling your shot on how replacing Vigen will impact the offense. Many of us are going to look pretty stupid if the offense sputters over the next few years; only Oredigger will have called it correctly since he said that he didn't think Vigen was the biggest factor holding the offense back.

I can define fanboy however I want. It wasn't even a topic of this thread until you brought it up. This thread was solely about predicting the impacts of replacing Vigen.
I'll cop to the overthinking part...I definitely get that way. Of course you can make up whatever definition you want for the term "fanboy"...but please have some patience for the confusion of others when you are using ragtimes personal dictionary. We can set the term aside if you would like...it's definitely a carry-over from a different thread. Maybe Vigen defender?...would you call anybody a Vigen Defender right now...not in the past but right now?

The characterization you put forth about Vigen doing about as well as he could was indeed prevalent a couple years ago.....I don't think it was really a defense or even an endorsement of him. I think, in the year or so after the 2016 season, I was probably more or less in that camp. Heck it's possible for good coaches to struggle with some aspect of the game for a short time. The last three years though...Vigen's failures are manifest...everybody has seen it except for Bohl. He may still not see it! That is the crazy part.

Now...as far as predictions go...even if Vigen is heading up the offense for next season I would predict an uptick. When you are at the extreme top or bottom it is really unlikely that you would stay there for two seasons in a row.

Do you really think much of the offense is going to stay the same?..I hope not. If we are running the same offense, and have a great uptick in production...that would be the most confusing outcome. I guess you could then make the claim that it was about execution and playmaking all along.

My sense is that Bohl is giving the Polasek a lot of leeway to shake things up....not that Vigen may not have had that...just that the nature of the relationship will not be the same. I'm ultimately unwilling to make sweeping statements about where to lay the blame for the poor offense except to say...Bohl has presided over one of the more successful yet offensively challenged teams this century...IMO the biggest reason (not the only reason) for the bad offense year on year lies with Bohl's apparent inability to properly address it. Blame a coordinator all you want for a game or even a season...but four seasons?...as you said...obviously a HC problem.
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Ragtimejoe

Congrats!!! You are absolutely the Jeopardy grand champ for the category of “things people never said”. Your perseverance is outstanding.
ragtimejoe1
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OrediggerPoke wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:06 pm Ragtimejoe

Congrats!!! You are absolutely the Jeopardy grand champ for the category of “things people never said”. Your perseverance is outstanding.
Question: Do you think Vigen was the biggest factor holding the offense back.

Oredigger: No

Me: Oredigger is one person who doesn't think Vigen was the biggest factor holding the offense back. Who knows, he might be right.

Oredigger: I didn't say that!!!

:?
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:15 pm
OrediggerPoke wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:06 pm Ragtimejoe

Congrats!!! You are absolutely the Jeopardy grand champ for the category of “things people never said”. Your perseverance is outstanding.
Question: Do you think Vigen was the biggest factor holding the offense back.

Oredigger: No

Me: Oredigger is one person who doesn't think Vigen was the biggest factor holding the offense back. Who knows, he might be right.

Oredigger: I didn't say that!!!

:?
Me and the guys will see what we can do on a trophy for you. It would be unjust to let such an unremitting performance, in the face of such difficult overwhelming circumstances, go unrecognized.

Now to watch some Cowboys compete for championships on ESPN2!!
ragtimejoe1
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2) Do you think Vigen was the biggest factor holding the offense back?
No. Bohl is the head coach.
:rofl:
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
ragtimejoe1
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Dp
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
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AND...I don't care WHO'S fault it is/was...all I give a poop about is hopefully FINALLY winning a conference championship for the first time since 1988. I don't count the 1993 title for two reasons...1) we shared it with two other schools and 2) one of those schools was the ^*)&%&()) of the West!!!! :tickedoff:
I want CHAMPIONSHIPS not chicken poop! And we're getting chicken poop!!!!!!!!!!!
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1) Not even close.
2) He certainly contributed to the offensive struggles but I also think that we have been inexcusably thin at WR almost every year which I think contributed to play selection and the overall offensive approach.
3) I sure hope so but it will depend on our ability to throw the ball.
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I think Vigen was certainly a big part of the problem. He had too many tendencies. He didn't call aggressively until we were down 2 touchdowns. He never seemed to cater the offensive calls to the personel. His qb's never seemed to improve. Even Josh Allen didn't progress that much. He came to Wyoming over throwing screen passes and left us with the same problem. The NFL fixed that right away.

Part of it can be put on Bohl as well. Our recruiting focus seems heavier on defense than offense. On offense we focus more on runners and blockers. I dont think we've made pass catchers as big of a focus as they should be. DC was the opposite. When Vigen had an offense full of DC receivers he averaged 34 points a game. I know that was a freak year with all that NFL talent on offense, but it still shows a lack of recruiting focus on receivers since DC left. I'm not sure if we've recruited good enough qb's because none of them improved much under Vigen. Thats definitely on Vigen.

Sorry I didn't follow the format you directed me too, but its not that simple to call a "shot".

I think the offense will improve a lot this season. I think Vigen was heavily responsible. I think Craig Bohl was responsible as well.

Here's another prediction: the next five Wyoming offensive coordinators will all end up getting trashed on this board in the upcoming years. I can't remember one that we've had since Wyonation launched that didn't end up a scapegoat for the football team. We ran Tiller out of town for one bad call. In fact, I suspect the Tim Polasek haters will be in full effect by the time non-conference play finishes, regardless of our offensive statistics.
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Well, other than Oredigger, who may or may not have said losing Vigen will or will not have a positive or negative impact :?, it seems there is nobody that can come back next season and say anything remotely similar to:

"I didn't think Vigen was the main problem", "I knew Vigen wasn't holding this offense back", "All you knuckleheads who blamed Vigen are eating your words now", etc. etc. etc.

This thread was your chance. Call your shot now.
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
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Can we plug joe into the slot position?
307bball
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:37 pm Well, other than Oredigger, who may or may not have said losing Vigen will or will not have a positive or negative impact :?, it seems there is nobody that can come back next season and say anything remotely similar to:

"I didn't think Vigen was the main problem", "I knew Vigen wasn't holding this offense back", "All you knuckleheads who blamed Vigen are eating your words now", etc. etc. etc.

This thread was your chance. Call your shot now.
I don't know what kind of rhetorical box you are trying to build here..... but nobody is buying it. What the offense does next year will prove very little. So many other variables are in play.

For instance, I happen to believe Vigen was the biggest limiting factor for our offensive struggles...but I believe the number of causes of those struggles are more than two...way more. This means that if the new OC addresses every single Vigen-related deficiency, but nothing else gets better...guess what?..Our offense still will be no good. By the same token ... the new OC could be mediocre or worse but some combination of other factors gets better and Presto...better offense!

The reason you won't hear anybody making the statements you outlined has nothing to do with "calling your shot".... The views represented by those statements don't exist. I've asked so many times for evidence of this pool of good will for Vigen. Pointing to posts that say the offense is a Bohl problem is categorically not a defense of Vigen.

Call your shot:
1. Is there a reservoir of Vigen nostalgia?
2. If the offense is the same or barely better next year, will there be grumblings about wishing we had Vigen back?

My answer...

1. No
2. Hell.....No!
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307bball wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:13 am
I don't know what kind of rhetorical box you are trying to build here..
I guarantee that if the offense struggles next year, there would be posts about everyone bitching about playcalling and Vigen but that wasn't the problem. I'll definitely refer back to this thread :cool:

I disagree with the statement of the performance on offense next year. It has been so bad that any coach worth their salt will improve it. If you can't improve on WYO's offensive output of the last 2-3 years, you don't belong in coaching. Of course there are variables, sheesh, but the bar is so low that it is easily attainable. It is sort of like someone trying to lose 10 pounds. If you are 6' tall and weigh 185, that might be tougher to do. If you are 6' tall and weigh 700, not that big of hurdle.
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:45 am
307bball wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:13 am
I don't know what kind of rhetorical box you are trying to build here..
I guarantee that if the offense struggles next year, there would be posts about everyone bitching about playcalling and Vigen but that wasn't the problem. I'll definitely refer back to this thread :cool:
We already know haha. There was no other point of making up things that no one ever said other than to justify a non-existent argument.
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