Vaccine Requirements are Getting Out of Hand

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ragtimejoe1
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Asmodeanreborn wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:18 pm
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:46 am The other interesting "antithesis" to all of this is the vaccinated are giving rise to more dangerous variants. I'm not sure I agree with this, but I'm not so politically ingrained to ignore it either. Since we now know that the vaccinated can contract COVID and can spread COVID, it is certainly plausible that mutant strains are likely propagated in that population (anytime there is an active viral infection, mutants can form). The theory is that the mutants more able to evade antibodies are more readily propagated in the vaccinated crowd.
Dude, you are so close, yet so far. The mutant strains are FAR more likely to crop up because of people who aren't vaccinated as these are the people who are way more likely to spread the disease in the first place.

Yes, vaccine-resistant strains can happen, but the fact we have Delta to begin with are the people who weren't careful.
First, I didn't say I agreed with it just that it is an "antithesis" being floated out there. The delta variant appeared to originate in India and vaccination rates were relatively low at the time. I would say it is a good chance that the delta variant originated in an unvaccinated individual but prior to large distribution of vaccines in that region.

What you say is certainly the dogma. Unvaccinated people are more likely to contract an active infection of COVID thus more likely to propagate a mutated form of the virus.

However, it does us no good to ignore all viewpoints. There are numerous viruses in humans and animals that we've spent decades and billions of dollars developing vaccines but have yet to curb the infection rate and it has little to do with adoption of vaccinations. To put this on the antibiotic resistant bacteria "equivalency" a significant number antibiotic resistant bacteria arise from people who do not sufficiently finish their antibiotic regime. Some bacteria that showed some level resistance weren't fully killed thus able to propagate and perhaps mutate into even more resistant strains.

The theory is the same for the COVID vaccines. Yes, they elicit an antibody response and generate immunological memory but with biology there is always variation. Do we know that the vaccines stimulate a strong enough immunological memory in 100% of the recipients to quickly knock down a COVID infection? No. It is impossible to know one way or the other at this point. We are starting to see breakthrough rates of 25% or so which means they have an active infection. Assuming the vaccine has some effect on these individuals, they should mount an antibody response fairly quickly. What if the response is insufficient? Just like there are antibiotic resistant bacteria, is the stage set for antibody resistant (or worse) COVID mutants? Again, no way to say one way or the other but it is plausible. The liberal media, politicians, and health care professionals will undoubtedly blame future variants (there will be future variants) on the unvaccinated when the truth is that we won't know for sure especially as the variants develop antibody resistance more quickly. Again, I didn't say I necessarily agree or disagree with that viewpoint just that it is something to consider as the situation evolves.
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
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Asmodeanreborn
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The situation didn't even need to have evolved to the current state had people actually continued to take precautions. I'm far from an expert on this topic, but if you're really interested in the science behind all this (including how mRNA vaccines work and why we're not seriously worried about long-term side effects), I could probably set you up with a call with one of my friends who is. She has a doctorate in Molecular Biology and was the Director of Communication at the BioFrontiers institute (before she decided to go back and do research).
ragtimejoe1
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Asmodeanreborn wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:45 pm The situation didn't even need to have evolved to the current state had people actually continued to take precautions. I'm far from an expert on this topic, but if you're really interested in the science behind all this (including how mRNA vaccines work and why we're not seriously worried about long-term side effects), I could probably set you up with a call with one of my friends who is. She has a doctorate in Molecular Biology and was the Director of Communication at the BioFrontiers institute (before she decided to go back and do research).
Regarding vaccine safety; I agree that they are safe. However, I also know that does not mean they are safe for all. I personally am still having complications from my March vaccination. It has been reported to VAERS and is clinically diagnosed as an adverse reaction. I still understand, that data indicates the vaccines pose little risk long-term but we don't know that in kids. Regardless, the safety based on available data does not justify forcing people to take the vaccine and waive their rights. If there is 0 risk, the vaccine companies should be willing to assume liability for their product.

At the risk of doxing, I'm part of a multidisciplinary team (about every degree imaginable works with this group) that is developing diagnostics to identify people/animals that are more susceptible to disease and why. Like most, our work obviously pivoted to include a COVID component. We know unequivocally that some people are exposed to COVID (high level of exposure) and never contract an active infection (not just asymptomatic--they actually never have a viral load). Vaccines are the longest standing and most successful disease deterrent we have, but we've also largely ignored other components of the immune system. The innate system is clearly able to shed this virus in some individuals. It would be nice to know why. Our work also indicates the innate system is contributing to severe cases, so there appears to be a delicate balance.

Here is another interesting theory, during SARS and MERS a variant developed that was highly contagious and not virulent. Thus, it spread quickly undetected, immunity developed, and contained the more virulent strains of SARS and MERS which is why they just "went away". The same could be happening for COVID if any of that is true.

Our motto is to believe nothing and consider everything. Questioning, challenging, and debating is what drives science. Following something blindly is what hinders it. If you want to see a classic case of this, read about Barry Marshall and H. Pylori. I fear the politics associated with COVID are placing us in another "Barry Marshall" moment.
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
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WestWYOPoke
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laxwyo wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:41 am
WYO1016 wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:23 am
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:00 am On trying to make COVID worse than the flu for kids, he's not correct. The rate of serious illness in kids as a result of covid is statistically similar to 0 and MANY other things in society pose a much greater risk than covid for kids. Imagine if we put as much focus on childhood obesity as we do them being vaccinated or wearing a mask?

The approach by liberal politicians and health professionals towards children and other lowly susceptible demographics is EXACTLY why there is a credibility issue and why we are still struggling with this disease.
So what you're saying is that a keyboard warrior that "researches" by cherry picking articles that back up an inherint bias like yourself is more qualified to answer a medical issue than someone who has spent over a decade in the medical field and years studying for his degree before that. Got it.
Isn’t he a physical therapist or something? There are actually medical doctors that are fairly skeptical of most Covid measures. Tons of them to be precise, but they don’t make it on cnn for you to gobble down. Do you know who’s the most skeptical of the vaccine? PhDs! Lol you can’t make it up. Could you guess why? Because those people tend to think for themselves and weigh the pros vs cons.
I'm sure this doesn't need to be stated, but just because someone has a PhD doesn't mean they have any knowledge of medicine what so ever. Also, I would argue that PhDs, while experts in their fields, may think they know more about things they know nothing about. Living example of Dunning-Kruger.
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ragtimejoe1
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WestWYOPoke wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:52 pm
laxwyo wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:41 am
WYO1016 wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:23 am
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:00 am On trying to make COVID worse than the flu for kids, he's not correct. The rate of serious illness in kids as a result of covid is statistically similar to 0 and MANY other things in society pose a much greater risk than covid for kids. Imagine if we put as much focus on childhood obesity as we do them being vaccinated or wearing a mask?

The approach by liberal politicians and health professionals towards children and other lowly susceptible demographics is EXACTLY why there is a credibility issue and why we are still struggling with this disease.
So what you're saying is that a keyboard warrior that "researches" by cherry picking articles that back up an inherint bias like yourself is more qualified to answer a medical issue than someone who has spent over a decade in the medical field and years studying for his degree before that. Got it.
Isn’t he a physical therapist or something? There are actually medical doctors that are fairly skeptical of most Covid measures. Tons of them to be precise, but they don’t make it on cnn for you to gobble down. Do you know who’s the most skeptical of the vaccine? PhDs! Lol you can’t make it up. Could you guess why? Because those people tend to think for themselves and weigh the pros vs cons.
I'm sure this doesn't need to be stated, but just because someone has a PhD doesn't mean they have any knowledge of medicine what so ever. Also, I would argue that PhDs, while experts in their fields, may think they know more about things they know nothing about. Living example of Dunning-Kruger.
Signed, the entire MD community regarding ulcers and Barry Marshall, :rofl:
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
ragtimejoe1
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Co-signed Katalin Karikó, :rofl:
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:54 pm Co-signed Katalin Karikó, :rofl:
Who? Never heard of that name.
I want CHAMPIONSHIPS not chicken poop! And we're getting chicken poop!!!!!!!!!!!
ragtimejoe1
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Wyokie wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:57 pm
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:54 pm Co-signed Katalin Karikó, :rofl:
Who? Never heard of that name.
Her work helped lay the foundation for mRNA vaccines and she is a, gasp, Ph.D.!
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
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WestWYOPoke
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Can you be any more disingenuous... congrats, you found 2 examples of PhDs that work in medicine... but the vast majority of PhDs in this world have no medical background whatsoever. Thus my point that citing PhDs as a source is not valid.

In 2019, 55,700 PhDs were awarded, only 12,800 were in the life sciences (23%). Meaning over 3/4s of all PhDs are not even remotely close to medicine or human systems.
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ragtimejoe1
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WestWYOPoke wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:22 pm Can you be any more disingenuous... congrats, you found 2 examples of PhDs that work in medicine... but the vast majority of PhDs in this world have no medical background whatsoever. Thus my point that citing PhDs as a source is not valid.

In 2019, 55,700 PhDs were awarded, only 12,800 were in the life sciences (23%). Meaning over 3/4s of all PhDs are not even remotely close to medicine or human systems.
Barry Marshall is an MD but his story highlights how the collective echo chamber of the medical community stopped advancement of science. In all their medical wisdom, the MDs scoffed at the notion ulcers could be caused by bacteria. Despite solid data by Dr. Marshall, they continued to ostracize him, not fund his grants, reject papers, reject abstracts at scientific meetings. Finally, Dr. Marshall drinks H Pylori to give himself an ulcer, biopsies himself to prove it, and cures himself with antibiotics. I'm surprised you don't know the story as a medical professional.

For the Ph.D. part, perhaps we can go through the list of other Nobel Laureates or all the chemists, biochemists, molecular biologists, physiologists, immunologists, geneticists, etc. that have advanced the field of medicine and physiology. The mere fact that you act like only MD has advanced the field of medicine tells me all I need to know.

Since you are a medical professional, why don't you tell us of your experience on Doximity? That is entirely medical professionals.
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:31 am Since you are a medical professional, why don't you tell us of your experience on Doximity? That is entirely medical professionals.
"If you're a medical professional you MUST be on Doximity. If you aren't on the 'LinkedIn for Doctors' you must not really be a medical professional."

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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ragtimejoe1
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WYO1016 wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:27 am
ragtimejoe1 wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:31 am Since you are a medical professional, why don't you tell us of your experience on Doximity? That is entirely medical professionals.
"If you're a medical professional you MUST be on Doximity. If you aren't on the 'LinkedIn for Doctors' you must not really be a medical professional."

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Congrats keyboard warrior, you used google to figure out what Doximity is but, unsurprisingly, the point escapes you. On that site, there are numerous health professionals questioning all aspects of the COVID response including the vaccines. Some opinions are well thought out and some seem a little out there.

However, dissenting opinions are often ostracized as whackos with no debate on the actual content of the information provided which is eerily similar to what Dr. Marshall faced. Also similar to the some debates in this thread. Toe the party lines and ignore all information that doesn't agree with political views.
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
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WestWYOPoke
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:31 am
WestWYOPoke wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:22 pm Can you be any more disingenuous... congrats, you found 2 examples of PhDs that work in medicine... but the vast majority of PhDs in this world have no medical background whatsoever. Thus my point that citing PhDs as a source is not valid.

In 2019, 55,700 PhDs were awarded, only 12,800 were in the life sciences (23%). Meaning over 3/4s of all PhDs are not even remotely close to medicine or human systems.
Barry Marshall is an MD but his story highlights how the collective echo chamber of the medical community stopped advancement of science. In all their medical wisdom, the MDs scoffed at the notion ulcers could be caused by bacteria. Despite solid data by Dr. Marshall, they continued to ostracize him, not fund his grants, reject papers, reject abstracts at scientific meetings. Finally, Dr. Marshall drinks H Pylori to give himself an ulcer, biopsies himself to prove it, and cures himself with antibiotics. I'm surprised you don't know the story as a medical professional.

For the Ph.D. part, perhaps we can go through the list of other Nobel Laureates or all the chemists, biochemists, molecular biologists, physiologists, immunologists, geneticists, etc. that have advanced the field of medicine and physiology. The mere fact that you act like only MD has advanced the field of medicine tells me all I need to know.

Since you are a medical professional, why don't you tell us of your experience on Doximity? That is entirely medical professionals.
Did you not read my second paragraph? I specifically addressed the point bolded.

I'm not pretending to be an expert here. In fact, quite the opposite! I'm pointing out that people that aren't experts in a medical or related field aren't any more qualified to cast doubt than any one else. So a high school dropout and a PhD in electrical engineering (just an example) are equally qualified to comment on vaccinations.

TL,DR: just because you have a PhD doesn't make you an expert on everything.
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ragtimejoe1
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WestWYOPoke wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:23 am In fact, quite the opposite! I'm pointing out that people that aren't experts in a medical or related field aren't any more qualified to cast doubt than any one else.
Nor are people that aren't experts in a medical or related field qualified to discredit any theory related to COVID or the vaccines, yet here we are.

It has been fairly easy to differentiate posters' political views based on this thread but certainly not easy to identify sound logic as to why vaccine mandates are acceptable let alone encouraged.
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
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How many times has the "Science" changed over the course of the pandemic? Skepticism is what drives knowledge and innovation. Taking everything at face value just because it came from someone that fancies themselves as an expert and has letters behind their name is dangerous.



"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts" - Richard Feynman.
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I have first hand experience with hundreds of MDs, and can say that the opinions of physicians about COVID are about as varied as in any other cohort of people. Turns out that some think that vaccines are an absolute must and that people should lose most of their privileges if they refuse, and others think that we should all just get on with life and let people choose what they want to do with regards to the vaccine, and everything in between. I've only had one conversation with an MD who said that they don't trust the vaccine though. Those who think vaccines should be mandated are always the loudest and are quick to belittle anyone who thinks differently than they do.

I agree with ragtime myself... To mandate it and to couple that with requiring them to waive rights is too far. It seems that there should be some level of protection from either the gov't or from the companies who have profited obscene amounts off of a pandemic.
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:59 pm
WestWYOPoke wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:23 am In fact, quite the opposite! I'm pointing out that people that aren't experts in a medical or related field aren't any more qualified to cast doubt than any one else.
Nor are people that aren't experts in a medical or related field qualified to discredit any theory related to COVID or the vaccines, yet here we are.

It has been fairly easy to differentiate posters' political views based on this thread but certainly not easy to identify sound logic as to why vaccine mandates are acceptable let alone encouraged.
Personally, I disagree with any sort of government mandate. If a private company wants to mandate, that's their prerogative.

My stance on all this isn't based on anything political, it's based on what the science and the experts say. The vast majority of experts (and that data supporting them) says one thing right now. If those experts and supporting data start to say something else, that's what I'll support. Simple as that.
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ragtimejoe1
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WestWYOPoke wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:47 pm
Personally, I disagree with any sort of government mandate. If a private company wants to mandate, that's their prerogative.
I agree 100% as long as the private company assumes all liability for any immediate or future complications from the vaccine. Actually, this is why most companies try to make it difficult to not get the vaccine rather than mandate it. It hasn't been challenged legally yet, but it appears companies (or government bodies) who mandate the vaccine assume liability.
WestWYOPoke wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:47 pm My stance on all this isn't based on anything political, it's based on what the science and the experts say. The vast majority of experts (and that data supporting them) says one thing right now. If those experts and supporting data start to say something else, that's what I'll support. Simple as that.
I normally don't disagree with that but politics more than ever has crept into the science of COVID which is why I think we might be experiencing another Barry Marshall moment. Remember, until he drank the bacteria to give himself an ulcer, all the medical experts knew that bacteria were not causing ulcers. To me the highlight example of this is Ivermectin. There are several small (thus weak from a statistical standpoint) studies that show clear benefits of Ivermectin and there are some studies that show no advantage of treating with Ivermectin. That type of conflicting information isn't unusual when new treatments are tried and it is not justification to run out and self treat with Ivermectin. However, it is also not justification to ignore or belittle Ivermectin as a potential treatment. The Nurije Fype case highlights how we are in a potential Barry Marshall situation. Prior to COVID, Ivermectin was considered extremely safe with hundreds of millions of doses administered each year (in excess of 1.5 billion doses administered thus far) to control onchocerciasis. Severe adverse side effects are extremely rare and could be confounded with excessive parasite loads. In other words, prior to 2020, Ivermectin was safer than the COVID vaccines. The transition to the dangerous side effects narrative and hospitals refusing the treatment particularly in dire COVID situations is puzzling. The media is belittling the treatment and like the borgs they are, those with certain political leanings mindlessly follow what their media masters tell them.

I think obviously the jury is still out on Ivermectin, but the pushback against it is baffling.
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
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ragtimejoe1 wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:24 am I normally don't disagree with that but politics more than ever has crept into the science of COVID which is why I think we might be experiencing another Barry Marshall moment. Remember, until he drank the bacteria to give himself an ulcer, all the medical experts knew that bacteria were not causing ulcers. To me the highlight example of this is Ivermectin. There are several small (thus weak from a statistical standpoint) studies that show clear benefits of Ivermectin and there are some studies that show no advantage of treating with Ivermectin. That type of conflicting information isn't unusual when new treatments are tried and it is not justification to run out and self treat with Ivermectin. However, it is also not justification to ignore or belittle Ivermectin as a potential treatment. The Nurije Fype case highlights how we are in a potential Barry Marshall situation. Prior to COVID, Ivermectin was considered extremely safe with hundreds of millions of doses administered each year (in excess of 1.5 billion doses administered thus far) to control onchocerciasis. Severe adverse side effects are extremely rare and could be confounded with excessive parasite loads. In other words, prior to 2020, Ivermectin was safer than the COVID vaccines. The transition to the dangerous side effects narrative and hospitals refusing the treatment particularly in dire COVID situations is puzzling. The media is belittling the treatment and like the borgs they are, those with certain political leanings mindlessly follow what their media masters tell them.

I think obviously the jury is still out on Ivermectin, but the pushback against it is baffling.
The pushback is definitely strange. I would definitely like to see more studies on using it as a treatment. That being said, people taking livestock products without medical supervision is downright dumb. That's just as, if not more, baffling than the overall pushback.
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WYO1016 wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:18 am
The pushback is definitely strange. I would definitely like to see more studies on using it as a treatment. That being said, people taking livestock products without medical supervision is downright dumb. That's just as, if not more, baffling than the overall pushback.
I don't disagree especially as prophylaxis. I haven't compared but I'd guess the animal versions have different carriers and obviously different concentrations.

Here's another interesting dewormer story. A lady was diagnosed with terminal cancer. She went through traditional treatments and the cancer didn't respond well. She was given about 1 year to live. She found some information that fenbendazole (another animal dewormer) inhibited cancer progression and in some cases appeared to kill cancer. The physician wouldn't treat with fenbendazole but provided some guidance. She found a "country vet" to provide her with the drug (it wasn't clear if it was in the pure form or a pre-packaged animal form). She went into remission and was cancer free within a year. Obviously the sample set is so small it is hard to tell if the dewormer actually did anything, but the attending physician estimated chance at survival less than 1%. Fenbendazole is being evaluated as a cancer therapeutic but not approved.
WYO1016 wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:10 am I'm starting to think that Burman has been laying the pipe to ragtimejoe1's wife
Insults are the last resort of fools with a crumbling position.
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