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ragtimejoe1 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:06 pm

307bball wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:38 pm Finally...I don't see the metaphorical fence I'm being accused of straddling. What is the intellectual inconsistency in holding simultaneously, the belief that Vigen was not a good OC and that the offensive struggles were bigger than just him?

The thread is "call your shot". I can predict that next year our record will be 0 wins if everything falls apart and we'll be undefeated if everything comes together. We could also win just 1 game, or 2 games, or 3 games, or ....... What fun is that? Of course anything can happen. I'm calling it that Vigen was so bad the offense is going to see significant and noticeable improvement without him.

Ok..fair enough, here is my "shot"

1. The offense will be better (In this you and I agree)
2. Brent Vigen is a bad OC no matter what the offense does next year (in this you and I disagree)

Those are not conflicting ... your example of a prediction on wins that contains a ton of nested if statements is not applicable here. There is really only one "shot" to call...what do you predict the offense to do next year? The other question is: Based on what you think the offense will do, what does that mean about Brent Vigen's ability as an OC? One is a prediction and the other is an opinion.

Your initial list of "shots" to call included the question "Do you think Vigen is the biggest factor holding the offense back?". That is a super interesting question ... and the reason it is interesting is that its is completely unproveable...at least it is unproveable with our level of access to what goes on in the inner workings of the program. My opinion is that what he brought to the table represented the largest factor in how the offense struggled, but that contribution was nowhere near 50%. It is my opinion that if you hold everything constant and just replace Vigen....the improvement would have been minor or not at all. Now...nobody can run that experiment so that will have to remain firmly in the realm of opinion.

I believe the offense will be better because more than just Vigen has changed. I believe that style changes are going to be embraced in ways that the Bohl/Vigen combo was unwilling or unable to pull off.

Vigen (or someone on staff) could find and recruit big and mobile QBs. But they never really improved skill wise. So, will be interesting to see how the new guys do in that position.

307bball wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:46 am I believe the offense will be better because more than just Vigen has changed. I believe that style changes are going to be embraced in ways that the Bohl/Vigen combo was unwilling or unable to pull off.

Agreed there will be no way to prove this. However, during 7 years of abysmal offense, the Bohl/Vigen never really corrected the abysmal offense other than 1 year. I give Bohl more credit. I don't think he all the sudden woke up, realized his offense stunk so now he must do something and drastically change things/style.

I think he'll convey a few things that he wants done but it will be up to the OC to implement. In other words, I think the body of work is there to draw a conclusion as to the level the offense can be with Vigen at the head. After 7 years, I don't think it is at all reasonable to assume in any capacity that there would be drastic improvement had Vigen been left at the helm. 6 of 7 years of futility and 1 good year because of NFL talent all over the field is enough data. If he were running the 40 and every week for 7 years, it was at about 6 to 6.5, I wouldn't all the sudden expect him to train extra hard and run a 4.4.

fromolwyoming wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:11 pm Vigen (or someone on staff) could find and recruit big and mobile QBs. But they never really improved skill wise. So, will be interesting to see how the new guys do in that position.

This, I think will be huge. I think the same goes on the WR side. It will also be interesting to see if we actually adjust to exploit defensive weaknesses and maximize the offensive talent we do have.

ragtimejoe1 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:11 pm

fromolwyoming wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:11 pm Vigen (or someone on staff) could find and recruit big and mobile QBs. But they never really improved skill wise. So, will be interesting to see how the new guys do in that position.

This, I think will be huge. I think the same goes on the WR side. It will also be interesting to see if we actually adjust to exploit defensive weaknesses and maximize the offensive talent we do have.

I think so. I'd like to see us throw the ball down the field more. More big plays with catching the defense off-guard. I mean, our reputation right now, is running the ball, right?

Another way to look at all of this Is by breaking down the most important position on the field. What’s Wyoming’s record with Josh Allen and Sean Chambers starting games? Pretty damn good. We might not have liked the offense under chambers/Vigen but it won games. If chambers stays healthy and the new OC wins 6-8 games, there’s no real conclusions that can be drawn as we were a 6-8 win team under Vigen and chambers. Unless there’s a significant drop on D with a markedly improved O and something we can point to as “it would have been much worse has the offense not gotten better”, it’s going to be difficult to judge and we’ll be here arguing about the same stuff. Vigen was definitely deficient in getting other QBs to win many games.

Let’s go out and score 30/game and win 9-10 games and make this conclusive, shall we?

laxwyo wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:25 pm
Let’s go out and score 30/game and win 9-10 games and make this conclusive, shall we?